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winchester model 12 20 gauge
orion57
Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
Does anyone know if deluxe field model 12s had 24" barrels or if they could be special ordered that way from the facory? I bought one that looks like new, dates 1923, has a solid rib and checkered stock and forearm.The front bead and end of barrel look original.Any info would be appreciated.
Comments
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
Regards Dave
PS Bert the last year for Nickel Steel barrels was 1930. Stock was pretty much depleted by the end of 1932. I've only seen a hand full of guns made later than 1932 with nickel steel barrels that were original and they had rare chokes. I'll buy them all day long at $400 a pop!
PS Bert the last year for Nickel Steel barrels was 1930. Stock was pretty much depleted by the end of 1932. I've only seen a hand full of guns made later than 1932 with nickel steel barrels that were original and they had rare chokes. I'll buy them all day long at $400 a pop!
That is not true Dave... I have seen later guns with a correct nickel steel barrel. Not much later mind you, but at as late as 1934/35. Winchester was still using up old stock on hand for several years after the shift in barrel steel type, and that was especially so for the non-standard parts they had on hand. Orion57's gun could easily have been made one or two years on either side of the year he mentioned, and as you and I both know, the serial number charts are notoriously inaccurate[:(]. I try not to rule out any possibilities when a question is asked with so little background information provided.
As for the value, I could buy into your $500+ estimate if it were a nickel steel barrelled gun, but not for a Proof steel gun. $400 is a reasonable buy, and if you tryed to sell it at much more than $500, you will most likley be sitting on it for quite awhile. 50% graded finish is in my opinion the toughest sell for any collectable gun... it is borderline collectable (we all know collecters want the higher condition guns), and most shooters will not pay $500+ for a 70-year old gun.
Just my experience and thoughts.
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
As with most Winchesters, they have "3" values, as a collector, shooter, and PARTS. On the parts market the solid rib barrel and receiver extention will bring $275-$400. Too many people out there willing to spend the money to get rid of the barrel they have that has some sort of choke device on it, (Cutts, Poly, Herters etc.)
As with most field guns, they show more external wear, than internal wear, from extened carrying, and the elements of field hunting. Just the opposite of a range gun, (Trap or Skeet).
Yes there is a few here on GB right now with a solid rib, (90%) around the $900 range (Full choke) that aren't selling. They will. As always the marketing avenue used to get the most money for an item, sometimes needs a little research, IE: Local newpaper, national publication, internet listing site, internet auction site, etc.
I'll still buy Solid rib 20ga. guns, any choke, in 50% condition or better, if all original, no rust, pits, cracks, or chips for $400 because I know I can turn a profit on it. The last 20ga. Modified barrel I sold, I actually tripled my money, and it was a plain barrel with a modifed choke. (bought for $125, sold for $375) The market is there you just have to find it.
Regards to all
Davw
No, it will NOT be worth it to have it reblued/refinished. $200 is a fantastic buy for that gun[:p][^] If you do refinish that old Winnie, it will instantly transform itself into a non-collectable gun, and instead of being the $400-$500 that it is worth in its present condition, it will drop in value to the $200 you paid for it. On top of that, you will then be out the roughly $250 additional $$$ it will cost to have it refinished. Please do not even consider refinishing it.
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
IMO getting it "refinished" is a waste of time and money. If the gun can be "restored" that's a different story. It will never be worth as much as an original Winchester of the same vintage. However guns reach a point in thier life just like cars, you may want to consider restoration. You have to think of it as a "frame off restoration" of a classic car. It is completely torn down, trigger guard assy, bolt, receiver extention is removed, then the worn parts are replaced or rebuilt, wood is stripped. Then the metal is hand polished, (not a buffing wheel) and reblued just the same way the factory did it, (rust blued barrel, dilute hot blue the balnce)the gun is reassembled, and the wood is refinished using the same finish as the factory did, It's as close to "new" as possible.
Since there is a handful of places that specialize in this, and it would run in the nieghbor hood $700-$900. It really depends on if there is rust or pits, if lettering or numbers have to be recut, along with the condition of the stock, deep gouges or scratches etc.
Obviously the market on "restored Winchesters" isn't as strong as selling collectable condition guns, but it is there. The people who specialize in restoration also buy guns restore them and sell them. The key here is, you would want to keep all paperwork involved, so you have proof as to who Restored it, it does make a difference.
Some Winchesters see very little price drop, some see alot. For shotguns, the first two that come to mind, are the Md 21 and 42. If a well known restorer did the job, the price drop is less than 25% compared to the same gun in original condition. Just look at the guns Tony Galazan has for sale. Of course there were only about 38,000 Md 21's made and about 165,000 Md 42's. The key thing here is there were only somewhere between 350,000-400,000 Md 12 20ga guns made, and like I said only about 25% had a Solid Rib. So in reality, there isn't that many left. Since it's been estimated that at least a 1/3 of all Md 12s made are no longer around.
Again, Restoration is different than refinishing. No I would not refinsh it. I might consider restoring it, but that's the nice thing about these places, they can tell you without much work if it's worth restoring, sometimes just by a visual exam. Some guns are just to far gone.
This is where Bert and I disagree some. But a restored Winchester does have value, not as much as an original gun in the same condition, but considerably more than a gun in 50% condition. Again keeping all documentation as to who "Restored" it is the key.
There are quite a few things that can be "restored" and not detract from the value, Classic cars, Victorian Houses, and IMO SOME Winchesters.
Regards Dave
I completely agree that there is a time and place for "restored" Winchesters... but this is not one of them. As was pointed out by Dave, "restoration" is a lengthy and expensive process. This is how I personally determine if a Winchester is a candidate for full "restoration"...
1. How much did the gun cost me to start with?
2. How much is it going to cost me for the restoration work (including all necessary parts)?
3. What is the realistic market value after the restoration?
If numbers 1 + 2 = 3 (or relatively close to it), then restoration is viable. In the case of your gun, 1 + 2 does not equal 3 (and Dave's quoted cost for a complete restoration is a trifle on the low side from my personal experience). Yes, restored Winchesters are worth decent $$$, but they are never as easy to sell as an original gun in lesser condition.
I do own several restored Winnies, and they are very gorgeous guns... but when it is all said and done, I simply will not advocate restoring a gun if it does not make economic sense. For what it is worth, I am very well acquainted with one of the foremost Winchester restoration specialists in the country, and through him, I have gained a very good insight concerning this topic (no, he doesn't restore Winchester shotguns Dave, and it is not Doug Turnbull either[:)])
Bert H.
Real Men use a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
Some people like the nostalgic of pre-war Winchesters. As I said earlier, a Solid rib 20ga, pre-war is not an everyday find. Especially at $200. Even if you spent $750-$1000 on restoration it would be way below what you would pay for an original in 98% conditon or better of the same vintage. All you have to do is check out Dave Riffle's web site to see that, they start around $1750, if it has skeet grade wood low to mid $2000 range.
Bert you are correct not all Winchesters are canidates, but I said that too, it really boils down to the individual. A 70 year old Md 12 regarless of guage, might be worn some internally, especially if it's outer appearance is approx 50%. Sooner or later it just might need extractors, ejector, hammer spring etc. When you start looking at what it's going to cost to do that, an internal rebuild, vs what restoration would cost.
Again, at $200 plus restoration, you would have a gun ready for the next 70 years!
Regards to all!
Dave
PS Bobski you've got mail!