Winchesters, Pre-64 and Post 64, what changes?

CS8161

What were the changes made in the post 64 rifles as opposed to the pre-64 models?
Thanks

Bert H.

Hello Chris,

This same question has been asked at least a dozen times in the past few years, but here goes again;

In the year 1964, Winchester changed their manufacturing methods in an effort to save money. Specifically, for the Model 94, they went from forged steel parts & frame, to a sintered cast steel frame and stamped steel parts. They also began using new machinery that was capable of turning out parts that were nearly the same size. Prior to 1964, each individual part was milled and hand checked against a go no-go gauge, then it was further hand fitted to the individual gun. With the new machinery (bought from Germany), they opened up the tolerances slightly, and all hand fitting & polishing was eliminated. This same practice carried over to the stock making & fitting. The barrels continued to be manufactured in the same manner as before, so accuracy was not measurably changed. Similar cost saving changes occurred for all of the different models in production at the time.

btt

CS8161

Thanks Bert, I appreciate the info. A customer came into the gun store where I work part time and asked me that question. I could not answer it as I did not know what changes were made.

fishkiller41

What's the difference between the '94's made before WWII and the ones made after WWII upto '64? I'm sure their must be some difference, even in the pre and post WWII models. Thanks for any input...
Jeff

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by fishkiller41
What's the difference between the '94's made before WWII and the ones made after WWII upto '64? I'm sure their must be some difference, even in the pre and post WWII models. Thanks for any input...
Jeff


Jeff,

The pre-war Model 94s were made with much better care as it applied to the hand polishing and finishing. The quality of the hand polishing and finish dropped off noticeably during the war, and it gradually lessened right up to the big change in 1964. Still, the post war Model 94s were made with milled steel parts versus cast and stamped parts, and the old style bluing was used. I personally only collect the pre-war Winchesters.

modoc

In a nutshell,,they took afine bolt gun with everything going for it and turned it into a slamfire piece of crap.Same as the rest of their products.Then as they were digging themselves out of the gutter,the sky fell on them..I sincerely hope there will be a salvage operation ongoing to return them,at least close,to the top of the heap..modoc

Old hickory

Somewhat true Modoc, but the Model 70 was almost a custom rifle as made before 1964. It had to compete with a very awesome and accurate Remington 700 that was much cheaper to make. Winchester lost money on every Pre 64 70, 12, and 94 they made. Yes they should have charged more but in those hard money days, most people wouldn't have paid it. It's really only been the last 30 years that most shooters acquired the huge arsenals that are so common. Growing up in the 50's there were veryfew people who owned more than a rifle/shotgun and pistol.

only winchesters

Hello Chris: Over the years lots of things changed at Winchester to lower the cost of manufacturing, and reduce the total time required to make a gun from start to finish.

WWII changed the manufacturing world, since time was limited and finished products were needed at the front! After the war Winchester kept new manufacturing techniques that were developed for the war effort and put them in place in the commercial product lines.

IMO the largest single change, barrels and receivers used to be forged at the Winchester foundry. They soon realized that buying certified steel directly from the steel mill, was a lot cheaper than running a foundry.

In the machining world the less time one spends "cutting chips" the cheaper the product will be. Many changes occurred to help this. As well as design changes to thier firearm product line.

As far as design went, Winchesters had many parts that were threaded, barrels, receivers, screws, adjusting sleeves, action slides etc etc. When ever threads are used you have machine tolerances for both the male and female thread, eliminate it by using a clip or pin and you reduce the cost. Go from a fine thread to a course thread, reduce the cost. Eliminate screws, reduce assembly time.

Tooling cost was very high, hi-speed steel cutters had a short life span, where by the late 60s and early 70s we saw the switch to carbide cutters. Carbide cutters, (used correctly) will out last hi-speed steel cutters 10-1!

When it comes to stocks, as an example hand checkering a Md 70 stock took about 2 hours, pressed checkering took about 5 minutes. Also the grading standards used for stocks other than standard field guns, was something to see. 3x and 4x wood grades soon fell by the way side.

Hand polishing a receiver could take hours depending on exactly how rough it was once it came off the machine, maching polishing took minutes.

In essence they took the "craftsmanship" out of the gun making, to reduce costs.

Regards Dave

CS8161

Thanks Dave!

Wehrmacht_45

Yeah the times were tough. Remember it was the golden age of surplus, where you could get a surplus Mauser or 03 Springfield dirt cheap as a hunting gun. While not as refined or as accurate as a Model 70, the surplus market hurt Winchester and a bunch of other arms makers to the extent where I have seen in old issues of American Rifleman, that they tried to get the Govt to halt the tide of mil surp imports.

mljackso

Didn't Winchester also in 1964 delete the large Mauser type extractor and give up CONTROLLED feed as a result? This made the action less reliable in handling cartridges, using the PUSH feed method.

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by mljackso
Didn't Winchester also in 1964 delete the large Mauser type extractor and give up CONTROLLED feed as a result? This made the action less reliable in handling cartridges, using the PUSH feed method.


Yes, Winchester dropped the claw extractor and went to push feed on the Model 70 as part of the many changes institured in 1964.