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40S&W ballistics
skyfish
Member Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭✭
I think I learned something. I always shot and carries 180gr loads. After looking at velocity and energy, WOW the Hornady TAP I carry has a lot more energy with 155grains. I think I'll be using up my lots and making a switch. Someone else's thread got me thinking and checking, I was always told use the heaviest bullet. I guess its never to late to learn. If I ever break down and buy that Walther PPS in 9mm, I'll have to figure out that one too. What do some of you think.
Comments
I came to the same conclusion except what I was reading and figured out for myself was that 165's were the best all around weight/trajectory combination.
Edit:
Along those lines as well I felt moving down to 200 gr. with my .45 benefited that too. The 'old standby' of 230 gr. works for close shots but longer shots requires a high hold. 185's-200's mean shooting poa-poi. If it's in pistol range.
Edit II:
Bean,
Strictly speaking in defensive pistol you are completely correct, trajectory isn't a meaningful word. I was referring to military shooting with pistols as is sometimes needed up to 100 yds... or farther. A fact that may or may not be relevant here. My mind tends to wander in that direction sometimes over some issues. Simply spin me back around and point me back towards the topic and I'm GTG.
Along civilian lines, I also think of shooting jackrabbits out west with pistols and needing to hold high. As you can see I'm somewhat used to trajectory in pistol shooting. So it naturally enters my train of thought.
So, As it stands when velocity and necessary bullet weight/diameter are concerned in combination with acceptable recoil I prefer the 40 S&W with 165 gr. loads.
The "sticker" is that more energy does not by itself necessarily mean a more effective round, because you usually get the increased energy at the cost of decreased bullet weight and momentum.
If it were just about energy, then ordinary 115 grain 9mm rounds would perform the same as 230 grain .45 ACP rounds. If you check the tables, the two actually have identical kinetic energies, both at 350 ft-pounds.
Of course, with the SAME energy, the .45 shoots a heavier bullet and a fatter one. . .so by itself, that's better.
Getting back to .40SW rounds, you get into issues of where is the "sweet spot" between bullet weight and velocity. Some of this has to do with the characteristics of the individual gun, and with bullet construction.
Personally, I don't consider trajectory even relevant, since you're unlikely to try a "defensive" shot past 25 yards, and for practical purposes, pretty much any handgun round is shooting "flat" at that distance. Obviously, if long shots are a realistic possibility, than lighter bullets will give you a flatter trajectory (though they tend not to retain quite as much energy at distance, which is the trade off).
One problem with the 185 grain .40SW rounds is that they are longer, potentially leading to less feeding reliability, bullets being set back in the case, and associated pressure issues.
bean, you nailed it. It is combination of several factors. The load which has shown to exhibit ALL the desirable factors is the 357 Mag 125 gr JHP at 1250 fps or greater.
All other handgun rounds are compared to this one. The 180 gr 40 S&W does not cause as much trauma as the 155 gr or the 165 gr JHP to a HUMAN target. This has been proven in both actual shootings and comparative testing.[:)]
What stops the fight is trauma. A wide deep permanent wound channel. If this is placed in the upper torso it will cause the circulatory system to fail and thus no oxygen for the brain and the fight stops. (The only instantaneous stop is a central nervous hit)
bean, you nailed it. It is combination of several factors. The load which has shown to exhibit ALL the desirable factors is the 357 Mag 125 gr JHP at 1250 fps or greater.
All other handgun rounds are compared to this one. The 180 gr 40 S&W does not cause as much trauma as the 155 gr or the 165 gr JHP to a HUMAN target. This has been proven in both actual shootings and comparative testing.[:)]
Being Devil's advocate, Federal makes a "low recoil" premium load for the .40 that uses a 135 grain bullet and gets about 1200 fps. That's functionally pretty close to the ballistics you like, plus it uses a larger diameter bullet, which is usually a plus.
If you want to get 1350 fps with a 124 grain .357 caliber bullet out of your .40SW gun, you can do that too. . .its called the "357 SIG". [;)].
Lastly, any self-respecting "premium" .357 magnum cartridge should be able to achieve 1450 fps with a 125 grain bullet.
If you want to get technical, there are three things that can cause a "stop" (not just two).
a. Shock (ie hypotension) from bleeding.
b. Central nervous system damage, (ie a hit to the brain or paralysis from spinal cord damage).
c. Psychological factors (ie, the shootee thinking "I've just been shot, maybe I should stop before things get worse").
Of these three things, as you say, only "B" is a reliable stop. And "B" is the hardest one to achieve because the CNS is both a relatively small target, and a deep one that is protected by layers of dense bone.
Personally, I really don't dwell on this. Any of the major calibers (9mm, 40, 45, 357, etc) are good enough for defense with good ammo. None of them are good enough with weak shot placement.
quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
What stops the fight is trauma. A wide deep permanent wound channel. If this is placed in the upper torso it will cause the circulatory system to fail and thus no oxygen for the brain and the fight stops. (The only instantaneous stop is a central nervous hit)
bean, you nailed it. It is combination of several factors. The load which has shown to exhibit ALL the desirable factors is the 357 Mag 125 gr JHP at 1250 fps or greater.
All other handgun rounds are compared to this one. The 180 gr 40 S&W does not cause as much trauma as the 155 gr or the 165 gr JHP to a HUMAN target. This has been proven in both actual shootings and comparative testing.[:)]
Being Devil's advocate, Federal makes a "low recoil" premium load for the .40 that uses a 135 grain bullet and gets about 1200 fps. That's functionally pretty close to the ballistics you like, plus it uses a larger diameter bullet, which is usually a plus.
If you want to get 1350 fps with a 124 grain .357 caliber bullet out of your .40SW gun, you can do that too. . .its called the "357 SIG". [;)].
Lastly, any self-respecting "premium" .357 magnum cartridge should be able to achieve 1450 fps with a 125 grain bullet.
If you want to get technical, there are three things that can cause a "stop" (not just two).
a. Shock (ie hypotension) from bleeding.
b. Central nervous system damage, (ie a hit to the brain or paralysis from spinal cord damage).
c. Psychological factors (ie, the shootee thinking "I've just been shot, maybe I should stop before things get worse").
Of these three things, as you say, only "B" is a reliable stop. And "B" is the hardest one to achieve because the CNS is both a relatively small target, and a deep one that is protected by layers of dense bone.
Personally, I really don't dwell on this. Any of the major calibers (9mm, 40, 45, 357, etc) are good enough for defense with good ammo. None of them are good enough with weak shot placement.
The wound cavity caused by the 135 gr .40 bullet at 1350 fps is almost identical to the 125 gr JHP 357 Mag at approx the same velocity. Many do not like the 135 gr stating it lacks the necessary penetration, but actual shootings do not bear this out. The problem is there are very few actual shootings with this load to get an accurate sample.
Point being, as I have stated here several times:
If you use the BEST self defense ammo available in the 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 S&W, and 45 acp they are all about the same in their ability to 'stop' the fight!!![;)]
RE; this thread, the 135, 150,155, or the 165 gr .40 loads are all good. Many in LE use the 165 and 180 gr loads because they are afraid they will not achieve adequate penetration, which is not true. So the best compromise load is the 165 gr (full power) loading with a JHP![8D]