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80% receiver rules
Arizona39
Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
I find it hard to believe that it is posible to buy a receiver for a gun thats only 80% finished without going though a FFL. Is this true? When does a piece of steel become a gun to the ATF?
Comments
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
BATF doesn't define a complete firearm in terms of percentage. If an object is capable of firing a projectile by means of a fast burning propellant, it's a firearm. The "frame" or "receiver" for such an object is also considered a firearm.
Actually, you can legally make a firearm for your own use. You have to put a serial # on it, and it can never be transferred.
Neal
On the contrary, I know several people who have built their own firearms, I think our own Kimberkid from this board is one of them, and can share some valuable information (and probably will). I know guys who have finished AR15 type rifles. I also know a guy here locally who finished out the Maadi Griffin 50 cal BMG kits that were available a while back.
Those kits, and that story, go to prove a firearm doesn't need to be finished to be considered a firearm by the ATF. The builder/seller of these kits was selling them through Shotgun News. From what I hear, the ATF told him once they were too close to being finished firearms, but he continued to sell them. They ended up busting him for selling firearms without an FFL.
At the trial, the ATF expert witness said it took less than a day to finish one of these off to the point it would fire a primer. In the eyes of the ATF, as long as it can fire a primer, it's a firearm, regardless of how much more work is needed before it can really withstand the brunt of a live round. This guy should have listened to the ATF in the first place, it would have saved him a lot of aggrevation. At any rate, it's not necessary for a firearm to be able to discharge a round before it's considered a firearm by the ATF. At the trial, the amount of time needed for it to get to fire a primer was considered.
While the Maadi Griffin kits were not capable of firing anything as they came, the ATF later sent out letters to all the customers who bought these kits. It told them they had been evaluated as firearms, and as such, required serial numbers. A form was included so these buyers could stamp the numbers on their parts, and send them to the ATF.
Also, I think it's questionable as to whether or not serial numbers are actually required. Case in point is the single action cylinders that are being sold, which will convert black powder replica revolvers to fire modern cartridges. These are being sold, and they are accompanied by letters from the ATF saying they are legal. A person can take one of these cylinders and install it in his black powder replica revolver, and it will shoot modern ammo. While I don't have one, I've seen them, and I haven't heard anything about the user having to put serial numbers on his revolver to do this. Of course, he could take the cylinder and put it in any particular firearm he wanted as long as it would fit. Just the nature of this tends to suggest serial numbers would be usless in this situation.
I think Kimberkid has taken off on dissertations on this in the past. He'll probably be along shortly with some good information.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Takes some time and ingenuity but can be done at home.
Go to http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi and you will be amazed at some of the stuff we are doing.
The problem is the BATF has been reviewing there stance on these and will probably pass some more very stupid rules.
Right now I can make an AR lower out of a block of Aluminum in about 3 days with my tools.
cpermd
You do NOT have to put a serial number on them and they can be sold or given away.
You can NOT build them to sell for a profit or as a business.
NM please check the BATF website and Tech office before you post incorrectly.
cpermd
ADDED: NM, serial numbers, or the lack of them, is no problem when transferring firearms through an FFL. Prior to 1968, there was no law requiring firearms to have serial numbers. Several pre-'68 firearms don't have serial numbers. Serial numbers were more for quality control tracing, as opposed to firearm tracking. Most FFL dealers should be aware of this and how to transfer guns without serial numbers.
Edited by - boeboe on 10/31/2002 21:41:33
An individual lay asseble an AR type receiver into a rifle for his own use, just as boeboe & cpermd say, but it cannot be assembled into an assault rifle or have any of the prohibited features which define the type. Simply building your own AR does not exempt you from the 1994 ban. In all fairness to Neal Myers, I think he is correct that most of these 80% receivers are never actually completed to the point of being a functional firearm. I honestly think it is far easier to simply purchase a complete receiver and then add a parts kit to make a complete rifle. If you have the skills and tooling needed to machine an AR receiver into a functional unit then go for it. These are just my opinions.
Mark T. Christian
However, I stand by my comment that "it can never be transferred". By "transferred", I mean entered in a dealers bound book and on a Form 4473. Look at the items that must be entered: manufacturer, model, & serial #. Do you think that a dealer would enter a homemade firearm, leaving these fields blank, or just write "homemade"? I don't think so.
The relevant ATF decision is on p. 135 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P5300.4): "With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms." It doesn't say anything about profit. It absolutely says that it cannot be sold. The problem with the paperwork means that it can't pass through a dealer.
I wouldn't want to give such a gun away within my lifetime; it's a slippery slope from "gift" to "manufacturing without a license". No one wants to get involved with litigation with BATF.
Neal
The tought of building on a 80% or less receiver is appealing to me. I have have my own tools ( milling machine, lathe, metal shaper, and lay-out tools ) and some experiance so that is no problem. I'm just worried about the legality of the whole thing!
Thanks and keep any info coming!