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Put this to rest for me

Cameron203Cameron203 Member Posts: 210 ✭✭✭
edited September 2003 in Ask the Experts
I am curious on what round has more stopping power a .45 ACP or a 10mm. Here is Winchesters website Specs: BTW thanks very much to bambihunter for the info. http://bambihunter.myftp.org/images/10mm/pistolcartridges.jpg
10mm:
175 gr. Super-Xr Silvertipr Hollow Point
Velocity (fps) 1290
Energy (ft. lbs.) 649




.45 ACP:
230 gr. Supremer SXT
Velocity (fps) 880
Energy (ft. lbs.) 396

170 gr. Super Clean NTr (Tin) Super Clean NTr (Tin)
Velocity (fps) 1050
Energy (ft. lbs.) 416

185 gr. WinCleanr Brass Enclosed Base
Velocity (fps) 910
Energy (ft. lbs.) 340

230 gr. WinCleanr Brass Enclosed Base
Velocity (fps) 835
Energy (ft. lbs.) 356

185 gr. Super-Xr Silvertipr Hollow Point
Velocity (fps) 1000
Energy (ft. lbs.) 411

But down is a link to show stopping power. Could it be the 10mm has more muzzle velocity than the .45 but not the take down power? I guess my question boils down to what would be a more survivable round to be hit with the 10mm or the .45.? Thanks

http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/sp.html

Comments

  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    Stopping power isn't a set value. They are an estimate but vary widely in real life. I'd rather be accurate and fast rather than carrying a hand cannon with tremendous stopping power that is slow to draw and hard to hit targets with. There are to many variables in human physique and psyche to put a solid value for "stopping power". Hitting your target ensures high stopping power.

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  • Cameron203Cameron203 Member Posts: 210 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    But as far as say pounds per square inch which bullet has more force? Curious, just would like to know.
  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    PSI? Chamber pressure or impact force? Either way probably the 10mm, but that still doesn't ensure good stopping power, it's not bound by mathematical concept, all two and four legged creatures will take a different amount and delivery of lead to be "stopped". For each creature you have to make a prudent guess as to what that amount will be. Most folks will say 40cal or better for two-leggers, but there have been a lot of one-shot stops with small calibers too. It just ain't a sure thing either way you go.

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  • Cameron203Cameron203 Member Posts: 210 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Impact force, what would do more damage?
  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    Once again, too many variables. Bullets do wierd things when they hit flesh. People have been looking for the "magic bullet" for years, the only "magic" ones are the ones that work, and you don't know if they'll work until they hit, and by then it's too late to reconsider if they don't work.[;)]
    "Damage" varies heavily on impact velocity, bullet composition, bullet style, entry angle, target composition, target density, target water content, bullet expansion, etc, etc.....It's like saying X+Y+G+K+M+N+R=51.6, that's fine, but what does each variable equal? You can't determine it accurately because of the lack of scientific info and high number of variables. Same thing with stopping power, too many variables and not enough hard data to draw firm conclusions with.

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  • Colt SuperColt Super Member Posts: 31,007
    edited November -1
    My understanding is that, statistically, the 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint .357 Magnum is the top stopper, with the .45ACP at number 2, and the .40 S&W 180 grain at third. I don't think that there is a deep enough statistical base on the 10MM to show its' ranking.

    I can carry any of the four, and I like the .40.

    If you train, and shoot a lot... the caliber is not the most important factor in a "stop". A head shot will stop anyone, in any of those calibers.

    Which would I rather be hit with??? Do you really think there is an answer to that question that won't make me look like more of an idiot than I am.
  • kingjoeykingjoey Member Posts: 8,636
    edited November -1
    I even carried a 9mm Makarov for years, still do occasionally. Not very powerful, but very accurate, and capable of stopping readily with a headshot. The only stopping power variable that you can determine and change is yourself. Be the best shot possible and pick a caliber you are comfortable and confident with. I usually carry a 45 but will opt for my Makarov, or a 9mm Hi-power, or a 357 S&W M28, or about anything else that I am comfortable with. I'm less concerned about the ammo/caliber selection and I am with the gun selection. I won't carry a gun that I am not extremely familiar/proficient with, and those that I am proficient with I can draw, aim, and hit my target with a level of speed and accuracy that caliber is rather irrelevant. For either the head or body shot, the 357 Mag, 40 S&W, 10mm, 44 Special, 45ACP, and 45 Colt have had a history of being better than marginal manstoppers. Practicing on aiming in the head/upper torso area would be my personal recommendation. I am not an expert by any means, but I could logically deduce that a man is more immediately incapacitated with a hole in the head/neck area than a hole in the lower body. Once again, no definite variables, but I am personally quite confident in my belief on that.

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  • jsergovicjsergovic Member Posts: 5,526
    edited November -1
    A recent conversation at a local shop left me with the impression a high powered bullet can pass through a target cleanly - too much velocity, perhaps like the 10mm.

    A bullet with lower velocity would "open up", expend it's energy inside the target (tearing it up while bouncing around).

    They didn't sell much 10mm. The 10mm is like the 40S&W, but longer, more force.

    I liked the King's comments on the Makarov. I was surprised by how easily my copy targeted.

    Also at the shop they said more people get killed from .22 LR's. I don't have statistics, but I do know one or two well-placed shots will stop an intruder.

    The stopping power is contingent on, as mentioned, hitting the target. If the firearm is uncomfortable, a medium-sized round will be harder to handle than a comfortable handgun firing a larger round. I know, I've tried.

    If you want to shoot chunks of wood to experiment with penetration, without actually trying, I'd say the smaller 10mm with more energy will have greater penetration than the larger .45 with less energy.

    There is such a thing as too much penetration. You don't want a round to pass through its target and wind up down the block.
  • PythonPython Member Posts: 267 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gentlemen;
    I. it seems, am one of the few fans of the 10mm. With 180grn hydro-shoks it is a very effective stopper. These bullets would not pass cleanly thru a target. Tests on ballistics clay bear this out.
    I have several .45 acp's, and would not hessitate to use them in a self defense situation. However, I carry a Bren 10 special forces, and I am certian of it;s stopping power. The 10mm simply did'nt develope the following that had been hoped for. The .40 S$W was extensively marketed to the law enforcement community as the do all, end all caliber. It, in my opinion, has NOTHING on the 10mm. Besides, S%W's cave in to the liberals was the last straw for me. I dumped all my smiths. And will not re-invest in them now that they reversed themselves, or their ammo. But thats just me. I still like the 10mm, It's proven itself, all be it, not the most popular. But then, I don't trust my a** to whats popular. Just my opinion.

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  • No-StickNo-Stick Member Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How "damaging" a slug is to the target boils down to two things:

    1) Where the target is struck.
    2) How much energy is transferred from the slug to the target.

    A slug that weighs 230gr and passes through the target may do less "damage" than one that weight 170gr and stops within the target. Of course, how quickly a slug sheds energy after impact is highly debatable and is subject to many different variables.

    Ideally, you'd most likely want something that's heavy, but still stops quickly. At very close range (sub 10yds), that's not very likely.

    No such thing as a magic bullet, unfortunately. Although it's nice to perform the one-shot-kill, I usually go for the solid first hit that cripples, with followup shots to bring down the target. One-shot-kills are a bonus.

    "Nuke 'em 'til they glow - then shoot 'em in the dark."
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