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Shipping Magazine to CA question

Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
edited April 2013 in Ask the Experts
Here is a bit on legal questions and answers first: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/DOJ-large-cap-magazines-2005-11-10.pdf

My question is I am trying to help someone attain a US made Magazine for the CETME rifle but he lives in CA. Basically he he needs a magazine for his CETME that is American made and I happen to have one Steel U.S. Made G3 magazine copy.

So my question is if he sends me one of his German made Mags and I then repair it to do what he needs, Meet 922r Compliance and ship him the US made mag un assembled is this legal to do so long as he puts in a mag block to limit the Magazine to 10 rds?

Comments

  • llamallama Member Posts: 2,637 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yup.

    Or you can just disassemble your complete mag and send it to him as a "parts kit"
  • Riomouse911Riomouse911 Member Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Uhhh, no. The first mag he owns should be ok, as THAT particular legally owned magazine is being sent for repairs. You state you also want to send him another one that was not possessed by the owner PRIOR to the ban, even if it was sent there "disassembled". From Cal-guns, which is a pretty well respected source for this stuff:

    Start here - but read the whole thread for subtleties

    If you are not covered by one of the exemptions (see some of them below) ...
    If you did not possess a large-capacity magazine in California before January 1, 2000, you may not have it now

    If the gun (and its matching magazines) did not exist before January 1, 2000, you shouldn't have large-capacity magazines for it now
    (e.g. Springfield XD, first marketed in 2002 [as distinct from the 1999 HS2000]. You shouldn't be prosecuted for possession/use, but the timing can't be explained

    A contrary example: a legally possessed in California pre-1994 Para-Ordnance magazine may fit a post-2000 Para pistol - the gun didn't exist before 2000, but a magazine that fits the gun did -- you may have this one - no logical contradiction.)
    No one in or out of California may transfer a large-capacity magazine to a non-LEO California resident
    The relevant Penal Code is 12020(a)(2)
    Quote:
    12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
    is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
    or in the state prison:

    (2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
    manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
    exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
    magazine.
    ...
    (c) (25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any
    ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10
    rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
    (A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
    cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
    (B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
    (C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
    firearm.

    This law is another effect of Mr. Perata's SB23; if you want to see what the legislature was thinking (or not thinking) see the analyses here.

    Prohibited actions:
    manufacture or cause to be manufactured
    import into the state
    keep for sale
    offer or expose for sale
    give
    lend Note that it is not prohibited to
    own a large-capacity magazine
    possess a large-capacity magazine
    use a large-capacity magazine, in whatever gun*
    repair a legally possessed large-capacity magazine
    (and, necessarily, to acquire the parts to make the repair --
    remember it only makes sense to buy parts kits for existing
    legally-possessed large-capacity magazines)
    (* Old magazine, new-ish magazine, old gun, new gun - all irrelevant; remember also the 10-round limit on fixed magazine OLL, a different law.)

    To repeat: Possession/use of a large-capacity magazine by an individual is not a crime, no matter how you acquired it.

    Large-capacity magazines manufactured during the now-defunct Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Device ban of 1994-2004 were marked 'Law Enforcement Only'. There are reasons one might legally have possessed them in California before 2000, but it is also legal to have the magazine bodies as repair parts for your other magazines.

    There are exceptions in 12020(b), (b)(19)-(32) notably

    Quote:
    (23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who
    lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to
    January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning
    to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully
    possessed in the state.

    (b)(19) exempts LE agencies
    (b)(20) exempts LEOs
    (b)(21) exempts CA-licensed FFLs
    (b)(22) exempts loans so long as the lender stays nearby
    (b)(27), (b)(28) and (b)(29) exempt "entities that operate armored vehicle businesses" who buy large-capacity magazines, lend them to their employees or receive them back

    There is NO EXCEPTION for non-LEO visitors to the state.

    Proof of a crime, however, is likely going to be difficult.
    Magazines are not usually serialized or dated
    Before 2000, no one would have anticipated this law, so there was no reason to retain receipts for magazine purchases
    Not all guns in California are registered or otherwise known to the California Department of Justice, so the corresponding knowledge of likely date of possession of magazines for the guns is also missing

    Note that according to the law as written, it is not prohibited to "buy" or "receive" or "find" a large-capacity magazine. I suggest that one avoid using one of those verbs or synonyms for them when offering advice on large-capacity magazines to other Calguns members. Such advice gives the appearance of encouraging others to violate the law.

    There is no obvious effort in California to strictly enforce this law at the level of individual owners; there are some anecdotes suggesting DOJ agents may be observing some out of state gun shows for California buyers. Large-capacity magazines seem to be a very low-profile issue.


    Large-capacity magazines and AR-type Off-List Lower (OLL) rifles

    With a bullet button, you legally have a rifle that does not use 'detachable magazines'. A rifle with a bullet button and other SB23 'features' such as a pistol grip must use 10-round (or fewer) magazines. Using a large-capacity magazine in such a rifle creates/manufactures an illegal California 'assault weapon'.

    To use large-capacity detachable magazines in semiautomatic centerfire rifles, the rifle must be 'featureless' - no pistol grip, fixed stock etc.
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Re: The second post. I'll need that in laymen's terms but no I am not planning on sending him back his repaired magazine plus an extra one. He is sending in one magazine for repair or re fit so that is will be a U.S. Made compliance part. The Magazine I have to salvage parts from is US made and was in my possession in 2000 and we can assume was made before the year 2000 as it came from CA in the first place I believe made before 1994 AWB.

    I will not be sending him a complete magazine. Mostly but not all. The repair is to fix it for Compliance.

    Does that help?
  • Riomouse911Riomouse911 Member Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I see, I read it incorrectly; I thought it looked like you were fixing a German one for him, and then sending him another American hi-cap as well. [:I]

    Since you're changing the configuration of the original part, and using other parts to complete it, I honestly don't know if this falls under the definition of "manufacturing" in this absurd regulation...and I don't ever want to steer you (or anyone else) in the wrong direction. (There are some guys who push it, but I don't have an extra 10k-20k laying around for a team of criminal defense lawyers, so I stay well clear of these types of things to cover my scrawny booty.) In todays liberal media world, releasing a story of "arrests made in internet-based hi-cap mag simporting scheme" will run forever. [xx(]

    I'd call Ca DOJ, and run your scenario by them. They're the ones that'll be called into Court if anything is later called foul, so if you have it from the horses' mouth, and something later gets SNAFU'ed, you've got the straight poop from an actual person there.

    General Information
    Phone: (916) 227-7527

    Good luck! These AWB/Mag bans are just going to become more confusing as they change from State to State. !
  • Waco WaltzWaco Waltz Member Posts: 10,836 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Riomouse911
    I see, I read it incorrectly; I thought it looked like you were fixing a German one for him, and then sending him another American hi-cap as well. [:I]

    Since you're changing the configuration of the original part, and using other parts to complete it, I honestly don't know if this falls under the definition of "manufacturing" in this absurd regulation...and I don't ever want to steer you (or anyone else) in the wrong direction. (There are some guys who push it, but I don't have an extra 10k-20k laying around for a team of criminal defense lawyers, so I stay well clear of these types of things to cover my scrawny booty.) In todays liberal media world, releasing a story of "arrests made in internet-based hi-cap mag simporting scheme" will run forever. [xx(]

    I'd call Ca DOJ, and run your scenario by them. They're the ones that'll be called into Court if anything is later called foul, so if you have it from the horses' mouth, and something later gets SNAFU'ed, you've got the straight poop from an actual person there.

    General Information
    Phone: (916) 227-7527

    Good luck! These AWB/Mag bans are just going to become more confusing as they change from State to State. !



    Thanks I will give them a call.
  • Emmett DunhamEmmett Dunham Member Posts: 1,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Every gun show I have been to thee have been stacks of these magazine kits for sale and it seems there is a loop hole in the ban that lets you buy a parts kit to repair a magazine. The kits them selves if assembled are illegal but used to repair an existing magazine is fine. All I can say is there must have been a lot of broken magazines out here in the last few years.

    Emmett
  • dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,173 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
    Every gun show I have been to thee have been stacks of these magazine kits for sale and it seems there is a loop hole in the ban that lets you buy a parts kit to repair a magazine. The kits them selves if assembled are illegal but used to repair an existing magazine is fine. All I can say is there must have been a lot of broken magazines out here in the last few years.

    Emmett


    Folks also use them to make "10/30" magazines - 30 round body blocked to 10 capacity. It's alot easier rocking in a magazine with a longer body on rifles like the M1A, Mini 14 and FALs.

    All my 1918 BAR magazines are going strong, but it's good to know (at least for now) that if one of them craps out I can get it replaced. I've always grabbed a few at the Reno Gun show and popped the plate before heading back to CA. But I agree, those AR magazines do seem a bit (ahem) fragile .....?

    BTW, Gene Hoffman is an attorney working with Calguns & the letter posted in the OP is CA DOJ's official response. He's done alot of work to help us out. The "magazine rebuild kit" is just one example. There are many on line sellers that send them into CA and have been doing so for years.
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