10 gauge Winchester cannon

gearheaddad

I have an old Winchester cannon that I would like to try and get some more information on. Any idea of any publications that would have some information on them? Years, numbers, models, values, etc.
Thanks,
Ed

rufe-snow

Flayderman's Guide has a write up on them in the Winchester section. They were made from the 1890's to the 1950's, in various finishes etc. He values them between $675 & $1,250 depending on condition and type etc.

Bert H.

Hello Ed,

I have some reference material for them in my home office, but it will have to wait until this evening before I can get to it.

What I can tell you, is that they were introduced in 1899, there was just the one model, and not that many of them were made. They were/are serialized, but there are no records to research. iron jockey is correct... only the cannons made for export were serialized.

According to the information I have, there were approximately 18,400 Model 1898 Breech Loading Cannons manufctured before being discontinued in 1957. It was the year 1976 when Winchester licensed the Bellmore-Johnson Tool Company to make the modern replicas

Bill DeShivs

They are still being made.
http://www.cannon-mania.com/

iron jockey

The 10 gauge cannons manufactured by Winchester Repeating Arms Co. are found in four basic variations. The very first model, which appeared for sale about 1903 had a one inch O.D. muzzle diameter. It is estimated that there were less than a thousand units made with this dimension when it was changed to a 1 1/4 inch diameter (second major variation) for the rest of the production run, ending about 1957. Apparently there were early "market gunners" lashing these cannons to the bows of their punts or johnboats, paddling up to flocks of sitting ducks, and pulling the lanyard on live shotshells. The guns were only designed to shoot blackpowder blanks. The resulting failures prompted Winchester to strengthen the barrel wall. These two variations of the cannon had blued barrels and "japanned" carriages. "Japanned" is a somewhat out of use term for a type of black paint. The third variation was a chrome plated cannon with rubber tires. The first style tires were of the "baby buggy" type, small half round grooved tires like those seen on old style baby buggies (prams)in which most of us old guys rode in back during the dark ages. That was way back in the days of no hair, no teeth, and filling our pants. Well, maybe things have not changed all that much anyway. The fourth major variation is the chrome plated cannon with the large tires marked "FIRESTONE". These tires are similar to the ones you see as advertising items with the glass ashtrays in the center. The only other variations within the Winchester made guns are in markings on both the carriage and barrel. The biggest misconception about these cannons is in regard to serial numbers. Winchester did not serial number the 10 gauge cannon. The only minor exception to this was on guns made for export which were required to have a serial number by the importing country. For obvious reasons, these are rarely encounted in the USA.
All Winchester cannons will be found with a one, two, or three digit parts assembly number on both the barrel and the trunion collar. It was necessary to fit and matchmark the collar and barrel before the bluing process. They then had to be disassembled for finishing and reunited with the correct barrel/trunion collar so the breech would be at the proper degree in the carriage. Finishing the barrels with the collar installed would have caused severe rusting within the fine threads holding the collar on. All of the cannons made by Winchester will have a number from "1" to "999" on them, at which time the number went back to "1" again. In the mid-1970's Winchester licensed the Bellmore-Johnson tool company to produce the cannon with the Winchester trademark. There were production shortcuts on these guns, such as a black anodized finish on the barrel and elimination of the roller bearing on the foot of the hammer where it rides on the mainspring. These guns are still in production, along with some variations including brass and chrome models. The quickest way to tell an original from the replica series is to look at the top of the barrel. All original Winchester guns were plainly marked "NOT FOR BALL" on top of the bbl. in front of the trunion collar. The B-J series is marked "FOR BLANK USE ONLY" along with the Bellmore-Johnson name and address. Production estimates are said to be in the 17 to 19,000 range for the originals. The guns are difficult to date with the exception of the early small diameter muzzle. It is not believed that the one inch muzzle production reached over 999 units, thus it can be fairly safely assumed that the numbers on these guns, for all practical purposes, indicate order of production from circa 1903 to circa 1907. This is probably more than most people want to know about this cannon, but it is a very interesting item produced during the glory days of Winchester. I have collected and studied them for over 40 years and have owned most all of the major variations several times. All of that being said, original or repro, they are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot!!!

hedgehopper62

I collect old shells and have a box of win.10 ga.blanks made for the cannon they are plastic and have some that are paper.tks hedge[:D]

fordsix

i have a case of shells..i have just never bought one[V]

martinphoto1

Iron Jockey,

I posted an inquiry about Winchester Canon's on another site and was re-direted to your post here. I found it very informative but would still like to pick your brain about one being locally (to me) advertised for sale.

It's not mentioned to be a Bellmore-Johnson model and it is stated to have "NOT FOR BALL" stamped on the top of the barrel with the numbers 721 on the barrel & in front of the trunion collar. Per your description these two attributes seem to indicate this canon is a Winchester made canon, not a B&J, yet those that I've seen advertised as old win. canons do not have white metal treads on the wheels nor white metal axels, they were all black. B&J's current web site do not show one like this one either.....





Your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Thnaks in advance.....Marty

iron jockey

Marty--this is a hard question to answer without "hands on" the cannon, or a bunch of really good close up photos. I'm not quite sure when you say "white metal" if you are speaking of the color of the tire area or that the wheels are made of diecast alloy material. I can see the tire area is shiny, they could be polished cast iron. All of the wheels made by Winchester were cast iron and finished in a lathe. They were then "jappaned" (painted black, including the tire area) with the exception of the chrome guns which had the two different style rubber tires applied after plating. The color of the carriage in the photo appears very flat, it is not a color applied by Winchester or B-J to the painted guns. The blue color on the barrel does not appear to be Winchester blue, either. It could be anodized or hot blued, but does not appear to be original rust blue. It would not be difficult for anyone with basic skills and a lathe to chuck in a repro barrel and remove the B-J markings, stamp the barrrel "NOT FOR BALL", and apply the 3 digit number to it. The Winchester address marking would be much more difficult, but could be done. Check the hammer foot and see if there is a roller bearing on it where it rides on the mainspring. B-J eliminated this as a production shortcut, all original Winchester guns were made with it. A lot of things have been done to the original cannons over the years. Add in the repros that have been around for 30 years and you are liable to see just about anything out there. Most of the original guns have some degree of bore pitting ranging from light to horrible. That could be another indicator. Sorry, this is the best I can come up with whithout being able to examine it or having detailed photos. Overall, the gun is very suspicious, and if it is an original Winchester, the collector value has been hurt.

martinphoto1

Iron Jockey,

Your reply was a conformation of my gut feelings on this canon. I collect pre-98 Win. rifles and I always wanted one of these canons, I don't know that much about them but something nagged at me on this one, specifically the bright metal axle and the tire treads, all those I ever seen were black. Your point about the chassis and the barrel not looking right is an issue I never would have known, so thank you very much for your opinion and reply...I think I'll pass on this one .

Best regards,
Marty

fordsix

it might be original just someones atempt to refinish it