the 223 problem

aztileman

my buddy at work is trying to tell me the 223 tumbles and he also is telling my that a SKS is better the a AK-47 and that they are both better then the ar 15 what do you guys think

thanks

travis

HeavyBarrel

Yes the .223 has been known to tumble. I am not sure why he would tell you an SKS is better than an AK. Neither the SKS nor the AK can compete with the accuracy of the AR but neither the Ak or SKS needs cleaning to function at it's best like the AR.

vallopez2000

The .223 bullet was designed to tumble after it hits the target. That is how it does the most damage. If it didn't, it would only make a small hole the size of a .22.

JustC

The "tumble" rumor was pure fodder. The reason the bullets would cavitate and change directions once impacting a target was because the early version M16 had a 1:12 rifling rate, which made the RPM of the bullet MUCH lower than the current 1:9 and 1:7 twist. The projectile was very easily destabilized and thus would deflect very easily, especially when hitting bone or brush and bushes. There never was a desire to make a projectile tumble as this goes against every rule in external balisitics. A tumbling round would lose all it's energy in a very short distance and be about as accurate as a slingshot using different sized rocks for each shot. The tumble was an effect of the slow twist barrels coupled with jungle settings of dense brush and bushes as well as full metal jacketed ammo that would not expand upon impact with objects and would therefore deflect and in turn, tumble in the air after being thrown out of gyroscopic stability.

as to the SKS vs AK vs AR, the SKS is more accurate than the AK, but the AK is lighter and better designed for close quarters and quick sight aquisition. The AR has far better accuracy and range capability with far superior sighting set-up. I would carry an AR first before anything else,...unless there was an M14 available[:D]

why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?

ern98

What commie country is your "buddy" getting his propaganda from? The top varmint round, for ranges out to 250yards or so, in the USA is the .223 in both bolt amd AR style rifles. Neither the AK or the SKS is ever mentioned as a varmint rifle, just as midrange combat rifles. Now if you start loading unappropriate weight slugs in barrels with the wrong spin, yeah keyholing has been known to happen. Also in the real early days of the AR/M16 there were issues with cleaning and jamming, but they've been understood and under control since the last half of the VietNam War. So get real, you don't pick the exception to quote as the rule unless your "buddy" is trying to sell you a bridge or is just likes to hear himself talk.

WoundedWolf

Here is what I have heard, so take it as such...

-The .223 is very accurate, has a small profile (so is not affected as much by windage), but is easily deflected or absorbed by a hard target. Therefore it may not be very ideal for woodlands, jungle, or urban combat, but with clear line-of-sight it is a tack driver.

-The modern .223 rifles (1:7" twist) do have good stabilization. The tumbling was only a problem with the very early rifles (1:14" twist).

-The .223 can penetrate a steel helmet up to 1,300 meters, while a .308 can only penetrate it up to 880 meters. HOWEVER, the .308 can penetrate a cinder block at 50 meters, while the .223 cannot. The 7.62x39 can penetrate a steel helmet up to 1,000 meters and can also penetrate a cinder block at 50 meters.

-Yes, the SKS is considered to be more accurate than the AK-47.

So my bottom line, if we get attacked by gophers go with the .223. If we get attacked by people, try and hit them at 1000+ meters with your AR, then switch to the AK or M1A when they get closer. [:D]

For more info, these guys fleshed out the issue pretty well:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8971

-Wolf


MOLON LABE




The Second Amendment begins when the First Amendment ends.

One shot

both the AK and SAK will never compete with the AR in accuracy, but the AK will function far longer in a dirty envronment. You should see some of the slow motion action shots of the AK being fired. The dang thing has a lot of barrel flex and motion. It is a wonder anyone can hit thier target with that thing but they do. The .223 or 5.56 rounf is getting vary bad reports back from the troops in the desert. It would seem they are having to make several upper body hits in order to put targets down. This was something we found to be true during the first Gulf War. Like anything else some of this may be due to shot placement. You make a good brain pan or heart/lung shot they tend to go down.

"The most persistent sound which reverberates through man's history is the beating of war drums."
Arthur Koestler, UK

aztileman

thank you guys

travis

lanky

Actually, those military "reports" are just bs. The 308 has failed to stop men, too. The 62 gr M855 IS a poor choice as a manstopper, but the 55 gr M193 ammo works pretty well. YOu can always use the 60 gr Nosler Partition softpoint in 223, which works just great.

JustC

you can thank the geneva convention for the lack of stopping power. If they were loaded with a 60gr softpoint, it would be a bang-flop proposition.

why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?

nononsense

Travis,

"my buddy at work is trying to tell me the 223 tumbles and he also is telling my that a SKS is better the a AK-47 and that they are both better then the ar 15 what do you guys think"

In the first place we have been shooting the .223 Remington since 1957 and there are no reports of "tumbling" outside of folks trying to shoot bullets too long for a specific twist rate. This doesn't even pertain strictly to the .223 since it can occur with any cartridge/bullet/twist rate mismatch. He might be referring to the 5.56 as used by our military since there is a design aspect of those cartridge loaded with bullets designed to tumble but only after initial penetration.

Varmint shooters routinely make straight shots out past the 300 yard mark with great accuracy. I shoot a .223 Rem. with the same bullet as the military loads in the 5.56 but I hit targets out to 1,000 yards without tumbling. He needs to do some real reading or be a little more specific.

This garbage about the SKS or the AK-47, who really cares! It sounds more like beer muscle bar arguments than anything that needs discussing in our lives. They are both battle proven and both certainly are suited to doing battle and accomplishing the goals as mandated by the designers. Consistant volume of fire with adequate accuracy meant to deliver a bullet to a target, with sufficient energy to create a wound requiring the use of more personel for medical attention and using up resources. Other than that, get over it.

Best.

tr fox

I don'tknow why we aren't using good, mushrooming hollow-point 5.56 bullets in all the Arab countries since they don't suscribe to the Geneva Conventions anyway.

nononsense

tr fox,

It's not the Geneva Conventions. It is the Hague Conventions, Declaration III. We didn't sign any of it either although we do adhere to it... sort of.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/hague.html

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

Laws of War:
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.

This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.

[Signatures]

Source:
The Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907
A Series of Lectures Delivered before the Johns Hopkins University in the Year 1908
By James Brown Scott
Technical delegate of the United States to the Second Peace Conference at the Hague
In two Volumes
Volume II - Documents
Baltimore, MD : The Johns Hopkins Press, 1909.



Best.

lanky

the troops are using 77 gr and heavier hp's in the 223 in 'Stan, and maybe in Iraq as well by now.