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gunsmiths and other revolver experts

bwabwa Member Posts: 224 ✭✭✭
edited April 2002 in Ask the Experts
Recently I requested advice concerning a problem with my reloading tools(apparently static electricity) causing an overcharged round which was difficult to extract from my revolver. Shortly after that I noticed that, when turned a certain way, the cylinder would tend to rub against the bottom of the frame when opened to load/unload. When I examined it further I discovered that one chamber in particular would do this -when I turned it toward the frame and moved the cylinder back and forth, it would bind against the frame and require a good push with the thumb to move it past.Hmmm. I got out my dial caliper and began measuring the diameter of the cylinder, turning it and measuring it at several different points. The measurements were consistent at the rear edge, but when I moved the caliper forward on the cylinder about half an inch, the diameter was a good .010 greater when measured across the chamber mentioned earlier than across the other chambers.Hmmm, again. I laid the straight edge of the caliper longitudinally on the top of the problem chamber, and surely enough, it wasn't flat -it has a very slight arch to it, with the high point about half an inch from the rear of the cylinder.Hmmm, yet again. For a moment I wondered if firing the high-pressure round mentioned above would expand the chamber(even though I don't even know from which chamber it was fired). In my limited knowledge of metals, I concluded that the hard steel used for gun chambers would split rather than stretch when the maximum pressure was exceeded. That left only one conclusion, it seemed to me: sloppy milling and quality control at the manufacturer.You fellows have the floor. Is my conclusion correct, and if so, should I just accept the minor imperfection, or try to badger the manufacturer(S&W) for a new cylinder? The revolver is a Mod. 29-3, which I bought NIB from a GB seller back in January. He had bought it a number of years ago of course, and kept it in a safe and never fired it.If you need more detail, I'll try to get it to you ASAP(I'm trying to get my taxes done today, so I don't know when I can get back with you.).Thanks to you in advance for your always helpful input.
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Comments

  • RancheroPaulRancheroPaul Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ever seen a "bulged" barrel on a shotgun? If pressures are such as to be considered "excessive," then the question becomes one of "How excessive?" Enough to just "bulge" or more than enough causing the metal to split or shatter......I think you have a serious problem here. S. & W. quality is not such as to manufacture a cylinder with a "bulge" and actually, that would be impossible to do given the manner in which a cylinder is machined at the factory.If it were me, I would box it up and send it to S.& W. for inspection and repair......and I wouldn't screw around trying to shoot it again!!!
    If You Can't Buy a Pair, Get a Spare!
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sounds like you came close to catastrophic failure. The heat treating on most gun parts is intended to make the steel tough, not brittle. Had the cylinder been brittle, the top of it and the top strap probably would be gone. You can thank Smith for building in extra strength, but you now have a bulge from an overload. It is not Smith's fault, it is yours. While I have not looked at a Smith owner's manual for decades, I assume, like most manufacturers, it warns against the use of reloads, just for this reason. I assume your M29-2 has recessed chambers, and I doubt that such cylinders are available any longer from Smith, but it would be worth a call to see. In the alternative, you can try the secondary market like parts dealers, posting on GunBroker's wanted forum, and on the Smith & Wesson forum. Oops, I see you have a 29-3 and not 29-2 (I should have checked back after reading the first time and beginning to respond), which probably does not have recessed chambers, so I expect that Smith can replace it. [This message has been edited by JudgeColt (edited 04-06-2002).]
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  • S&W ManS&W Man Member Posts: 208 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is not at all abnormal to bulge a cylinder any more than to buge a barrel. A revolver will tend to bulge a cylinder RATHER than a barrel, because it has a slight pressure release between the forcing cone and the cylinder as there is a miniscule gap there. Thank God that the failure was light enough that it only bulged or warped the cylinder and the cylinder, and commonly, the topstrap did not fail. There is no doubt that a new cylinder can be put in. BUT, I would either, as recommended above, send it back to S&W for repair and a good check out, or find a VERY comptent gunsmith that YOU trust and have him do the work. You need to make sure that there is no other dammage or excessive stress to the gun.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution![This message has been edited by S&W Man (edited 04-06-2002).]
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  • Ed45+PEd45+P Member Posts: 78 ✭
    edited November -1
    I remmember your original post. I'm not a gunsmith but I am a reloader and something is very wrong. A result like this is not attributable to a few particles of propellent sticking to the powder measure. You are getting a major, excess pressure buildup. Sorry for not remembering the details of your original post but did you mike the diameter of the bullets you were loading? Its possible for bullets of slightly larger size to inadvertently get mixed in with others. They should not go in the brass but could if you flare alot. I think I'd stop, have S&W repair the cylinder and start anew. Carefully! Ed
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  • groundhog devastationgroundhog devastation Member Posts: 4,495
    edited November -1
    Not being a bonafide gunsmith but just an interested citizen who loves my second amendment rights and has an addiction to things that go bang, I'd say that there was a problem in the machining at the factory. S&W will correct it for you. When you get it back you can do a little experiment. Shoot a group using only 1 chamber of the gun. You should do this with all the chambers. Then shoot a group with the fully loaded revolver. I'll bet you would be amazed at the difference in the groups!! I'd be willing to bet that the individual groups will be better than the full cylinder groups. You guys ever think about the machining that would have to be in place to cut 6 chambers exactly alike to lock up and shoot the same as the one before it? I love to work on the bolt guns and do them as close as possible to perfect but them guys working on the wheel guns can have it as far as a job goes. I do love to shoot them though!!! GHD
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I dont believe I saw in your original post, nor this one, that you stated anywhere whether or not you had fired this revolver before, and if this had never been a problem before. I have to ask, because I dont believe that you could have gotten enough powder clinging to the funnel to cause the cylinder to bulge with the charge being that heavy in the next round loaded. You also stated that you tested that theory, and that you never got near the 10.0 grain max. for that particular load. This all being said, that is why I wonder if the gun had been fired before, and if the condition may have been a preexisting one. Still, I dont see how you could have gotten that much powder stuck in the funnel, at least not enough to do that damage. Also, check and see just how much powder your case can hold of that particular powder, before it would become a compressed load, I am curious. It could also be that if you are using a powder that comes close to filling the case at a max load, that you would have noticed an amount that would have caused damage, because it would have been compressed. I did not go back and check on all the details of your load, that is why I ask these questions of you. If you follow where I'm going with this, I dont believe that you could have charged the case so much in this static electricity problem, as to cause this type of overcharge. Let me know what you find out, I'm very interested in this now.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • ked-marked-mar Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Please send your pistol back to the factory, and have them check,and repair it before any more use. I doubt it but you may have stretched the frame a small amount. I saw a 390 Beretta completely destroyed last Thursday night, and it's not a pretty sight!!!
    LOOK TWICE,SHOOT ONCE.
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  • bwabwa Member Posts: 224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I appreciate you fellows' willingness to assist. Let me see if I can provide a little more clarity.Judge: I think you may have missed my earlier description of the problem I encountered with the loading tools. I doubt that you would have so quickly assigned blame to me had you seen it. I followed instructions to the letter, even setting measure and scale 3% UNDER the starting load. I then discovered that powder was sticking in the drop tube of the measure, causing it to throw uneven charges. Even then those that I weighed didn't come close to the maximum charge. Given those facts I hardly feel foolish or irresponsible.Ed45: The bullet diameter is constant, and if anything a tad undersized. They slipped readily into the brass with just a slight flare.Sgt.: The gun had never been fired, aside from any factory test-firing, until it was in my hands. I probably won't have a chance for a while to check the powder weight in a filled case as you suggested; but as I recall I went back and shook each round in the batch, and heard the powder moving up and down in all of them. I also remember observing the charges as I removed the cases from the die and put them in the loading block, and thinking how little space they took up in the case.Some general observations:1)All the chambers rub the bottom of the frame -it's just that the one is worse than the rest. 2)None of the chambers is perfectly flat lengthwise; but the one is a little less flat than the rest.3)I didn't have data on minimum OAL for my load, and some of the cartridges were .010 - .015 shorter than the factory loads I bought the other night. Lee's Modern Reloading says that a shortened cartridge may double pressures in MAX. LOADS(emphasis mine). It's difficult to conceive of any of my cartridges containing the max. charge. The responders to my earlier post didn't think this was the problem.Well, I have to hit the hay; my brain is shutting down. I hope captkirk will allow a little more discussion here for a few days. If he does I'll get back with you another time. My sincere thanks again to all of you.
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  • woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Member Posts: 5,378 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a couple thoughts on this.In modern machining .010 is like saying a mile. This is a pretty serious bulge.What kind of measure were you using? If you were using a progressive press and a automatic measure like the lee auto disk I believe you could double charge by half stroking the press, that is raising the ram the partially lowering it, then raising it again. But not doing so far enough to index the press. Another possibility would be no powder at all in the case or one severly undercharged. If you had a squib and the bullet only went up the barrel just past the forcing cone, there would be likely been enough pressure to have done this.What powder were you using? Some powders you don't reduce from the starting load. Did you substitute magnum primers in a load that called for standard primers?(Not likely to have caused problems but possible)One little safety note: Shaking a loaded round only tells you there is powder in it not how much. If I question a batch of ammo the loaded rounds are weighed on a digital scale, or they are broken down and loaded again. Never shoot questionable reloads.Woods
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I missed some facts, I apologize. However, when someone describes bulged cylinders, that normally indicates an overload. Even in the worst quality Bangor Punta days, Smiths did not have bulged cylinders from the factory. Whether the overload was accidental is irrelevant. An overload is an overload, and apparently the cylinder was damaged. The revolver would have been proofed at the factory (presumably) and that should have revealed a cylinder that was not properly heat-treated. Another slim possibility is that this is one of those urban myth revolvers (obviously unproofed) that has a .44 cylinder and a .41 barrel, with the resultant high pressure that could certainly cause a bulged cylinder or worse. If I still do not have all the facts, I apologize, but I was just responding to what I read in the above post.
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  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000 ✭
    edited November -1
    bwa,Measure the hole diameter in the chamber from end to end. If you dont have the equipment to do this, remove the cylinder and take it to a local machine shop. They will do it for a few dollars. If there is more than .0005 variation in the measurement in either diameter or egg shaping, send it to S&W for repair. Once the metal has been streached, it cannot be repaired, only replaced. S&W will fit it and time it so it is safe and correct. Let us know what you do.
    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
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  • Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have seen several S&W revolvers with the bolt cut in the cylinder bulged,(thinnest part of the chamber),most were shot with fast burning powder in large capacity cases. Obstruction in barrel usually results in a bulged or "Ringed: barrel, My S.W.A.G. would be detonation from having too little powder in a large case, allowing powder to fall below centerline of case causing the primer to explode the powder instead of burning progressively as it is supposed to.
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  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    bwa, I feel correct in saying this, and from all your descriptions of the problem I will say with 100% confidence: You have not done anything to your revolver. Someone else may have, but it wasnt you. This gun may or may not have been built incorrectly, but you did not do the damage to this gun. Send it back, see if they can do anything about it. At least they can check to see if there is anything wrong with it other than the cylinder and replace the cylinder if everything else checks good. Good luck.
    SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
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  • jogn2jogn2 Member Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shaking the rounds is not an accurate way to insure against a double charge.On the other hand bwa states that all chambers rub on the frame, but one is worse. I'm not an expert, but I got out my N frame and looked at the cylinder to frame clearance - something is wrong with his gun!! Send it to smith and see what they say.
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  • bwabwa Member Posts: 224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    kirk: Thanks for keeping the thread open a little while -I respect your judgment in such matters.Gentlemen: Not much time, but I'll respond to a few things:woods: 1)I'm not sure .010 is accurate; I just looked again and got approx. .003 difference from the chambers on either side of the offending one. The first time I measured 90 degrees from the offending chamber, which possibly had the caliper touching the flutes between chambers. 2)I have a single stage, and the measure is the Lee Perfect(not too confident in that name right now). 3)It wasn't an empty case or squib; I had recoil, report, a clean hole in 3/4" laminated oak panel, and the sod kicked up behind it. 4)I was using Hodgdon's Titegroup, and checked with them before loading under the starting weight -they said it was fine and gave me the expected velocities. 5)I used standard primers. 6)Re: shaking a loaded round: I would think that no sound would tell you the case was full/compressed, which was the issue I was responding to. Hope this helps. Thanks for your input.Judge: I would assume the barrel is a 44 since it's stamped as such along the side. I fired half a dozen or so other rounds without noticeable problems.Jody: The maximum load was 10gr., starting load was 9; mine were 8.5 to 9.1. Would 1.5 gr. beneath max. cause the condition you're describing? Hodgdon's description of Titegroup says that position in the case does not affect ignition.dheffley: Good idea. I don't know how the cylinder detaches on this one(probably simple but I think I'll let someone else mess with it). I'll certainly let you know how I end up dealing with this.I'm mulling things over. The FFL who transferred it to me is also a gunsmith and is within driving distance; I may talk it over with him first and let him examine it. I'm also going to throw several charges and weigh each of them, duplicating as closely as possible what occurred in loading those first few charges. If I end up sending the gun to Smith, I may want your advice on how to handle the hassle of shipping a handgun back and forth -I've seen other posts on this and gotten very confused. That will probably be on a new thread.
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  • wipalawipala Member Posts: 11,067
    edited November -1
    Guys all you are thinking about overcharge as the explanation. Under charges with certain powders can have as big an effect as overcharges. The powder has enough room to detonate instead of burn. They mentioned this in a gun magazine a couple of years ago. I think it was bullseye powder (one of if not the fastest burning powder) And by all means send it back to S&W for repair.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A few more comments:The urban myth revolvers are said to be marked incorrectly, so the barrel could be a .41 barrel marked .44. (I have never seen one of these mis-marked revolvers, but they are routinely reported to exist. All the information is always second-hand, so I do not know if they really exist.) If other rounds fired correctly, that indicates the barrel is probably correct, and that the revolver was NOT damaged at that time. It apparently got damaged while firing later rounds. (Have I understood correctly what you are saying about firing the revolver?)The repoted Bullseye detonation catastrophic failures are well known, but no one has ever been able to duplciate them in the lab. If there were detonation, there probably would have been a catastrophic failure of this revolver. It is not hard to remove the cylinder. No gunsmith is needed to perform such a simple task. Merely remove the forward screw on the left lower side of the frame below the cylinder window and pull the crane forward. The cylinder will separate from the crane and the job is done. The ejector rod wiil stay with the cylinder and there will be no popping springs or the like. Depending on the age of the revolver, the crane retaining screw you are removing may have a spring-loaded plunger in it, but it will not be under tension once it is removed. Just do not lose the spring and plunger.
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  • digsterdigster Member Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just puttin in 2 cents worth. As a machinist with 28 years experience I would not touch a problem like this. The factory builds them all day long and they KNOW. Any one else is guessing,Period. If having your hand blown off or worse is worth the $$ saved let the guy down the road tell you what the problem is. Every factory makes a product on Friday just before quiting time and they are called lemons.
    Cheap advise (restated) send it to the people that made it and let them fix it. (At least they will test fire it and blow their hand off if it ain't right.) Good luck and good shooting.
    Oh yeah they can tell you what to shoot through it too.
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