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Wolf. re; BP item Damascas

tccoxtccox Member Posts: 7,379 ✭✭
edited February 2008 in Ask the Experts
Not to hijack the other item on BP. I think you are 180 degrees wrong on the burning of BP & SP. BP is an EXPLOSIVE whereas SP is a propellant. I'll let others wade in as I think you are just wrong! Tom
Sorry guys, I was not too articulate when I wrote the above.

Wolf, I challenge you to the BP & SP burning curve. I am trying to get a definitive answer myself but I am having a hard time getting a side by side curve. Actually, I don't think the two are anywhere the same. But what the heck do I know. Tom

Comments

  • Wolf.Wolf. Member Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    --
    So, TC, I'm not sure I understand your point.

    Are you refering to the semantics of the term "explosive" in reference to smokeless powder?

    ** EDIT **
    All, I am just not sure what he is trying to say. If he's arguing semantics, it's a non-issue as far as I am concerned. If he's saying something else, then I'd like to hear his argument.
  • cpermdcpermd Member Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What is your question for the experts??

    CP
  • GeriGeri Member Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This from a chemical Eng. that works for ATK
    Actually, it's the end use that makes them different. Gun powder, in one configuration, can propel a bullet. In another, it will explode. Now, some propellants won't explode no matter what configuration you put it in; and some explosive are just too fast reacting to propel in any configuration. But there is lots and lots of middle ground (and just try explaining this to our review boards...)

    One point of clarification, the difference between an explosion and a detonation is speed of reaction. In detonations the reaction rate is faster than the speed of sound through the material. An explosion is slower.
  • haroldchrismeyerharoldchrismeyer Member Posts: 2,213
    edited November -1
    Black powder explodes, or burns at the same rate whether or not it is under pressure. Smokeless powder must be under pressure to burn at a fast rate.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Get a copy of the DG Journal Summer 2002 to see superimposed pressure-distance curves of black and selected smokeless loads.
    Data was taken with transducers at intervals along the barrel's length.
    Max pressure was 1-1/2" from the breech.
    To the person who blew a Damascus barrel: what was the gun make, ammo load and was the barrel twist or Damascus?
  • tccoxtccox Member Posts: 7,379 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    V35, is there any way you can post the pressure curves, and if not. can you send me an IM with the results? I know they are different and have been lookintg, but have not been able to find the tables I have been looking for, thanks much, tom
  • tccoxtccox Member Posts: 7,379 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bob, I have tried to email you but it will not go thru. The email addy in my profile is good and you can reach me there. Thanks much, Tom
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,281 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by haroldchrismeyer
    Black powder explodes, or burns at the same rate whether or not it is under pressure. Smokeless powder must be under pressure to burn at a fast rate.


    You have it backwards... black powder must be under slight pressure (full case), whereas smokeless powder can be loose in the case.

    WACA Historian & Life Member

  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert
    Semantics
    BP, with a air space, will cause a dangeriously high pressure, while smokless dosn't mind having a air space in the case. On this point you are correct.
    However Harold is also correct, in that BP in open air burns at the same rate as when confined, while Smokeless powder in the air burns at a much slower rate than when confined AND the higher the pressure climes the faster that smokeless powder will burn. Example, a light charge of Unique will often leave granuals of unburned powder in the barrel and is quite "dirty", crank up the charge to a max level and not only does most of the powder burn, it burns a lot "cleaner".

    Over charge a BP gun (easiest to do with a muzzle loader) and the excess powder just blows out the end of the barrel, do the same with a smokeless powder gun and your pressures will go above the limits of metal strength but all the powder will still be burned inside the barrel.
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