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curio and relic one more time

DEEREHARTDEEREHART Member Posts: 373 ✭✭
edited December 2009 in Ask the Experts
Ok one more question. If the ATF decides to allow me to have a C&R, will they be interested in the guns that I already own or do they only have an interest in the arms I might purchase under the license?

Comments

  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello Doug,

    You only have to enter the guns that you acquire, or sell, using the C&R license. Anything already in your possession is exempt from logging it in your C&R records unless you sell it.
  • slumlord44slumlord44 Member Posts: 3,702 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    C&R guns you have before you get your liscense do not need to be entered in your bound book. HOWEVER, if you sell an existing C&R gun after you get your liscense you must enter it in your book. Show it as From your personal collection, and record the info on the person you sell it to. If they ever do an inspection, they will not ask to see guns purchased before you got your C&R. Hope this answers your question.
  • DEEREHARTDEEREHART Member Posts: 373 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert; I am a little confused, I would only record purchases and sales in which I use the C&R,but also anything that I previously owned would need to be recorded also? [?]
  • 11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,588 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No. Exisiting collection is existing collection. Your bound volume is for acquistions and dispositions. If I buy a rifle from a local dealer face to face, and did NOT transfer it from his license to mine, it does not need to go in the book. But if I SELL it, it should. What I already own NOT acquired using that license is not within the bounds of my license.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    I disagree with all of the above. Only those of us who hold Type 01 dealer FFLs are allowed firearms "off the books" and these must be clearly marked as such. In the case of a Type 03 C&R FFL, any firearm in your possession, not matter where it was obtained, that are classified as C&R must be in your A&D book. Obtaining a firearm before you had an FFL or purchasing it from a dealer on a Form 4473 does not exempt the firearm from being C&R and all C&R firearms must be booked.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    I disagree with all of the above. Only those of us who hold Type 01 dealer FFLs are allowed firearms "off the books" and these must be clearly marked as such. In the case of a Type 03 C&R FFL, any firearm in your possession, not matter where it was obtained, that are classified as C&R must be in your A&D book. Obtaining a firearm before you had an FFL or purchasing it from a dealer on a Form 4473 does not exempt the firearm from being C&R and all C&R firearms must be booked.


    Mark,

    Please show me where it states that in the regulations... when I first got my C&R (03) License, I specifically asked this exact question to the BATF (Seattle branch)... the answer I received was this... previously owned firearms that would classify as Curio & Relic did not need to be entered in my records unless they were sold after obtaining the license. In my case, I have a fair number of old Winchesters that I owned for more than 20-years before obtaining the license, and there is no way to record who, when & where, I got them from... and the BATF does not expect you to.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    There was a BATF circular a few years ago that addresses the exact subject and I am searching for it, but naturally is is the one piece of paper that I just can't find.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by DEEREHART
    Bert; I am a little confused, I would only record purchases and sales in which I use the C&R,but also anything that I previously owned would need to be recorded also? [?]


    NO... nothing that you previously owned needs to be entered in the book until you sell (dispose of) it. I asked this exact question nearly 15-years ago, and the response from the Seattle BATF office was exactly as I have stated. There is no requirement to record a C&R eligible gun that you already own. The BATF does not expect you to recreate records from the past.
  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    There was a BATF circular a few years ago that addresses the exact subject and I am searching for it, but naturally is is the one piece of paper that I just can't find.


    If the BATF changed their rules on this subject, they have not made it well known, and they have opened themself up to a whopper lawsuit if the try to enforce it. It is not feasible to recreate records from past (historical) transactions. For instance, I bought a 1927 vintage Winchester Model 54 back in 1974 from a gunshop in my old hometown (that is long out of business). I do not remember the name of the person or his FFL number... nor was there any paperwork required back then to purchase it. The BATF does not expect me to do anything with that old rifle until the day I sell it.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    Bert, I cannot find the circular. In the situation that you describe, guns you've owned for many years before becoming a licensee, you enter your own name and address in the acquisition column for C&R firearms in possession prior to obtaining your C&R FFL. Where you obtained them from 30 years ago is of no importance, it is where they came from when you obtained your FFL that matters and you simply indicate that they came from you; Bert H.. After obtaining the FFL you are expected to document the sources for acquisitions by FFL number or the name and address of the person/business you obtained the firearm from.

    I'm up for more discussion so hopefully we won't get locked at 10 responses.
  • Spider7115Spider7115 Member, Moderator Posts: 29,714 ******
    edited November -1
    When I moved from Virginia to NY State two years ago, an ATF investigator came to my residence for a pre-transfer inspection. We talked for a long time and I also asked that specific question. She said all of my previously-owned guns were exempt from listing in my bound book as they were legally owned just as they would be to any non-licensee. I would only have to enter one if I sold it using my C&R license and would write "transferred from personal collection" in the acquisition section and then the new owner's C&R information in the disposal section. She said ATF only cares about firearms acquired with my C&R license. She further explained that if I bought a C&R eligible firearm from a dealer and completed a 4473 rather than using my license, I did not need to enter it into my book unless I sold it under my C&R as described above.
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