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WW2 German General Wolff - Walther PP

nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
edited June 2005 in Ask the Experts
Hi - I met a gentleman that is selling a Walther PP in 7.65. He claims his father took it from General Karl Wolff's home during WW2 around 1941. He also has swords, photos, letter, maps, and flags from the home that definitely appear authentic to me. This is an old PP with no import stamp. It has the original mag and holster. Does anyone know if this can be verified to be Wolff's and what the value of this Walther would be.
Thanks.......
Abort Cuomo

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    nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The items may well be war souvenirs, but the story is highly improbable (unless the seller's father was a German burglar). Without documentation, photos, or capture documents, it is unlikely that you will ever find anything.

    The gun is worth the same as any other PP with similar markings & in similar condition.

    Neal
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    rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,650 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You have something that MIGHT? be worth a lot of money.

    If you can't research this German General yourself on the net. It might be worth your while to hire sombody who could, that has knowledge of the German language.

    If all else fails contact this collectors group, they have ties with the fatherland, and possibly could help you.


    http://www.germanguns.com/q_a.html

    luger_4.jpg
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    captkirk3@dslextreme.comcaptkirk3@dslextreme.com Member Posts: 3,804
    edited November -1
    In 1941?????????How the world did this Guy get into the Herr General's Haus and escape from der Vaterland undetected....? Look in the History Books....We had a Global Donnybrook on our hands at this particular Time in History.....I'm going to play the Devils advacate....I'm not convinced about the Story that goes with the Walther.....Convince Me....

    Captain Kirk, Tech Staff
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    zipperzapzipperzap Member Posts: 25,057
    edited November -1
    1118012108241_chewtwigzz.gif

    Herr Wolff was a very BAD NAZI HOMBRE! Date has to be wrong -
    general's had Reich guarded homes during the war - no exceptions!
    To burgle a general's house would have been an ENORMOUS COUP - an
    SS general? - forget it!!! Didn't/couldn't have happened!

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/wwii/2005-March/006518.html
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    nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I could be wrong about the date. This mans father passed a few years ago so the exact date can not be verified. The son was showing me all of the items and must have blurted out the date. I guess the key factor here is, are there any ways to prove that this pistol was once owned by Wolff ? I did some research and he passed also. Thanks for all the feedback.........
    Abort Cuomo
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    XracerXracer Member Posts: 1,990
    edited November -1
    Buy the gun, not the story.

    If this is a "Plain Jane" Walther PP....no engraving, no high polish finish, no NSDAP markings, etc., it's unlikely to have belonged to an SS General.

    Reminds me of just after WWII, every pre-war Mercedes-Benz brought into the U.S. was "Hitler's Personal Car".... [:D]
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    wolfdog45wolfdog45 Member Posts: 584
    edited November -1
    .

    Veritas vincit "Truth conquers"
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If his father took it out of Karl Wolff's home, his father was there long enough to snag some other goodies as well . . . does he have anything else or a traceable reference to something he or his father gave / sold to an expert? The very fact the individual referred to 1941 makes me smell a mixture of Limburger and rotting fish even at this distance. Unless Dad was a sticky-fingered SS underling, it didn't happen in 1941. He's the one offering the story . . . have *him* prove it . . . then research the provenance he offers! If any . . . . I rather suspect if you demand proof, he will "decide to keep" the pistol. The Hell with Elvis - *Barnum* lives!

    "There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)
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    nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    this gentleman has many items his father gave him like unmailed letters signed by Wolff, maps, metals, flag, Sword with ivory handles, and many 12 inch black and white photos of Wolff with family, Hitler, Himmler and other members. It is a photo album of Wolff. The back of the photos are writen in German with dates from 1938 to 1941. I am still discussing price on the PP.
    Abort Cuomo
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    XracerXracer Member Posts: 1,990
    edited November -1
    OK, you've got the timeline wrong. The photos may be dated to 1941, but they would'nt have been captured until late '44 or early '45.

    U.S. Troops didn't enter Germany until September 13, 1944.

    With some of the other items that came from the Wolff home (Wolff family pictures, signed papers, etc.) the pistol has provinance, and is potentially valuable.

    Without these, unless the pistol has some special markings tying it to Wolff, it's just another Walther PP.

    If the seller would be willing to give you some copies of some of the Wolff papers, photos, etc. and a letter stating that his father captured these items, along with the pistol, from the Wolff home, that adds provinance to the pistol and makes it more valuable.
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    nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,881 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think that we have determined that he doesn't have provenance for the pistol.

    Provenance would be, say, German issue papers for the gun, a diary or letter written by the general listing the serial #, or a photo of the general wearing or holding the gun. Even a US Army "war trophy" form might be adequate. But, a written statement from the GI who sold it? No way.

    Without documentation linking this particular pistol to the general, it will always be a gun whose value is judged by the gun alone. And, since we don't have photos, we have no way to determine that.

    Neal
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