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Stupid New Person Question
Jerecole
Member Posts: 173 ✭✭✭
Why is it that I have to register a shotgun or rifle I purchase at a store or gun shop but I can buy one from a buddy with no paperwork?
Comments
now some may argue that dealers keeping track of all this in a Aquisition and Disposition book and keeping the form 4473 that you filled out IS regestering, it is currently not. the only time the A&D book and the old forms come into play is if the firearm is used in a crime or they have a reason to "trace" it to see who purchased it originally. the police or any other agency cannot CURRENTLY go through them without a reason or for instance call up and ask "how many guns does Joe Blow have".
saying that though at some point i would have to say that eventually the way we are going this will change unless we remain very vigilant. i remember a couple of years ago there was a push by law enforcement to make all this public record or able to be saved in a database and it was struck down.
If form 4473 is not registration how can law enforcement pick up a firearm at a crime scene and trace it back to the original owner?
if it was registered they would know instantly wouldnt they. here is how it works.
say they take a glock 22 of off a car transporting drugs.
first they have to contact glock, glock will say i sold it to U.S gun distrubution, U.S. gun distrubtion says that they sold it to Big Jims Guns, Big Jims tell the police(fbi actually, usually) that they sold it to Joseph Blow and usually have to fax in the form 4473. if Joseph Blow is not the person in possesion of the firearm they will probaly want to ask Joseph Blow how his gun wound up in possesion of a drug dealer. now saying that he sold it to some guy at a gun show would probaly not end up getting Joseph blow in trouble it may lead to further intrusive investigation for him(a good reason to get a bill of sale/copy of drivers license or something if you dont know the person very well)
now bear in mind this process takes several days, there are certain groups/government entities that would like to actually register(some states already do) guns in which case every gun you buy the government stores it in a database with your name and a complete list of every gun you have ever bought. currently they keep no record of a persons gun ownership, that is a job that the FFL's are currently forced to do.
EDIT-twalkers post was basically repeating what i put in my first post, as far as what he said about having to go through dealers on every transaction, that is the so called "gun show loophole" that they are always talking about and trying to change.
quote:Originally posted by bustass392
If form 4473 is not registration how can law enforcement pick up a firearm at a crime scene and trace it back to the original owner?
if it was registered they would know instantly wouldnt they. here is how it works.
say they take a glock 22 of off a car transporting drugs.
first they have to contact glock, glock will say i sold it to U.S gun distrubution, U.S. gun distrubtion says that they sold it to Big Jims Guns, Big Jims tell the police(fbi actually, usually) that they sold it to Joseph Blow and usually have to fax in the form 4473. if Joseph Blow is not the person in possesion of the firearm they will probaly want to ask Joseph Blow how his gun wound up in possesion of a drug dealer. now saying that he sold it to some guy at a gun show would probaly not end up getting Joseph blow in trouble it may lead to further intrusive investigation for him(a good reason to get a bill of sale/copy of drivers license or something if you dont know the person very well)
now bear in mind this process takes several days, there are certain groups/government entities that would like to actually register(some states already do) guns in which case every gun you buy the government stores it in a database with your name and a complete list of every gun you have ever bought. currently they keep no record of a persons gun ownership, that is a job that the FFL's are currently forced to do.
EDIT-twalkers post was basically repeating what i put in my first post, as far as what he said about having to go through dealers on every transaction, that is the so called "gun show loophole" that they are always talking about and trying to change.
Thank you for the education, I have never thought of it this way.[^]
Senior Member
1479 Posts
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:19:45 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
contrary to popular opinion your guns are not registered at the gun shop/store. when you fill out the paper it is called a NICS check, NICS stands for national instant criminal search, that form and when the dealer calls it in is basically a background check making sure you dont have history that prevents you from possessing a firearm. after the call the following information is saved: the FFL that called it in, the date, the NTN(NICS transaction number), and if it was handgun or longgun. all the information pertaining to who is erased. the info they save is used to make sure FFL's are doing their jobs correctly(they actually caught an FFL a couple hours away that was filling out the 4473 forms but not calling them in and making up NTN numbers using this info, he lost his license).
now some may argue that dealers keeping track of all this in a Aquisition and Disposition book and keeping the form 4473 that you filled out IS regestering, it is currently not. the only time the A&D book and the old forms come into play is if the firearm is used in a crime or they have a reason to "trace" it to see who purchased it originally. the police or any other agency cannot CURRENTLY go through them without a reason or for instance call up and ask "how many guns does Joe Blow have".
saying that though at some point i would have to say that eventually the way we are going this will change unless we remain very vigilant. i remember a couple of years ago there was a push by law enforcement to make all this public record or able to be saved in a database and it was struck down.
What you say above is correct but you did leave out one little fact. When a dealer goes out of business for what ever reason all those 4473's and the dealer bound book by law gets sent into the ATFE.
quote:shootuadeal
Senior Member
1479 Posts
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:19:45 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
contrary to popular opinion your guns are not registered at the gun shop/store. when you fill out the paper it is called a NICS check, NICS stands for national instant criminal search, that form and when the dealer calls it in is basically a background check making sure you dont have history that prevents you from possessing a firearm. after the call the following information is saved: the FFL that called it in, the date, the NTN(NICS transaction number), and if it was handgun or longgun. all the information pertaining to who is erased. the info they save is used to make sure FFL's are doing their jobs correctly(they actually caught an FFL a couple hours away that was filling out the 4473 forms but not calling them in and making up NTN numbers using this info, he lost his license).
now some may argue that dealers keeping track of all this in a Aquisition and Disposition book and keeping the form 4473 that you filled out IS regestering, it is currently not. the only time the A&D book and the old forms come into play is if the firearm is used in a crime or they have a reason to "trace" it to see who purchased it originally. the police or any other agency cannot CURRENTLY go through them without a reason or for instance call up and ask "how many guns does Joe Blow have".
saying that though at some point i would have to say that eventually the way we are going this will change unless we remain very vigilant. i remember a couple of years ago there was a push by law enforcement to make all this public record or able to be saved in a database and it was struck down.
What you say above is correct but you did leave out one little fact. When a dealer goes out of business for what ever reason all those 4473's and the dealer bound book by law gets sent into the ATFE.
i dont want to sound like i am defending the government because i am not but why do you think that is? my guess would be that if they still wanted to be able to maintain the chain of possession if everyone that had an ffl that died or went out of business simply had the records thrown out there would be an awful lot of holes in that chain and make it hard to prove who owns what if it came down to it if there was no record of it.
i highly doubt they take all of them and enter them into some sort of database.
most ffls are not crazy about the amount of paperwork involved with selling guns(i know i hate having to play bookkeeper all the time) but the fact is if we want to sell guns for a business we have to do it. as much of a pain as it is it does help out the law enforcement on several differant levels.
Best