In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
winchester 1897
firefox5841
Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
Hello, I am new to the forum and hope someone can help. I just picked up another model 97 take down and the top of the reciever on this one is matted. Haven't seen this. The slide is marked model 97 the serial # dates it 1940. From what i have read matted recievers where on trap models but the bolt is not marked trap thank's Gary
Comments
These things seem to sell for a fair price, but I really want to keep it. Probably need to take it to a gunsmith to clean up, etc.
Any comments or suggestions?
i became a 16 GA winchester shotgun in quiet nice condition.
some parts are missing, but i hope you can help me out!
it is a model 1897 early serial (matching) build in 1898.
the trigger guard and trigger are missing and i guess some screws on the receiver as well.
does anyone had a good partslist with pictures?
thx
Full choke, knob pistol grip, steel buttplate.
This piece is heavily engraved with engraving on the receiver, barrel and trigger guard. The wood isn't checkered but looks original.
Any help on value and year produced appreciated.
Thanks
I do not have any info on the gun, but was just curious if there were any serial number ranges in which there were issues with the design being reliable or safe. Most likely this gun will only see some light clay busting activities, but perhaps might see some fair weather hunting.
gun control is not about guns, it is about CONTROL!
mike
Kory
It has straight checked stock, small old style checked foreend, 12 ga, 30" bbl,solid ribbed, with matted receiver. The breech bolt is marked "Trap Gun".
My question is: Do all 1897 trap guns include the matted receiver?
Thanks
What are you looking for? Date of manufacture?
yes i am. when i use the LL nothing but when i use the 2259 says was made in 1894 is that possibly true?
quote:Originally posted by Wehrmacht_45
What are you looking for? Date of manufacture?
yes i am. when i use the LL nothing but when i use the 2259 says was made in 1894 is that possibly true?
A Model 1897 could not have been manufactured in1894. I think this was addressed in an earlier thread that the "L's" are actually "1's" which would make the manufacture date in the early 1900's.
These numbers were hand stamped. It's very common for a 1 to look like an L.
Regards Dave
i am trying to sell a model 1897 for a co-worker. everyone asks for the serial numbers on barrel and receiver. the numbers i have on the gun and has been verified by more than 1 person is LL2259 both match. on the receiver the letter C appears above it. any help would be appreciated.
mike
Hello Mike,
The serial number is 112259. The date of manufacture (DOM) was early 1901. Contrary to what Dave (only winchesters) stated, the serial numbers were not hand stamped on the receiver.
The Winchester employee (working in the engraving shop) who made the roll dies at that time, intentionally cut the "1" digit in such a fashion that it resembles an "L".
Over the past year or so, I have dedicated a fair amount of time researching and studying this exact topic. I have compiled a fair number of pictures of the "L" serial numbers. In addition to the Model 1897, the exact same "L" appears on the Model 1892 and 1894 lever-action rifle serial numbers. It is not a case of a broken die (or dies), or a misstrike, but simply the specific way the die was originally cut.
As for your question about the value, please answer the following;
1. Gauge?
2. Barrel length?
3. Choke?
4. Condition of the slide handle (pump) stock (the "C" series guns were notorious for the slide handle to crack in near vicinity of the three screws that fasten it to the slide bar)?
5. Bore condition?
6. Condition of the bluing on the frame, the barrel, and magazine tube?
7. Checkered steel or hard rubber butt plate?
WACA Historian & Life Member
You might have an 1893 Wincehster, which is very close to the 97. The real easy way to tell is that the 1893 has a larger ejection port that extends to the top of the receiver. If your gun has this semi circular cut that goes to the top, then its an 1893 and not nearly as collectable as the model 97. If I recall they are not as reliable, and were proofed for blackpowder only.
Not True! Any 100% factory original Model 1893 in decent condition is considerably more collectable than the much more common Model 1897/97 standard gun in the same condition.
WACA Historian & Life Member
If your buddy's "C" series Model 1897 shotgun is in pretty used condition, but still functional, as many seem to be, its value is probably in the $250 to $500 range, depending on several factors:
---the condition of the wood (slide handle wood spool is often cracked and the buttstock is often cracked at the wrist right in there where the wood meets the receiver.
---I am uncertain if all the "C" series guns had the rounded pistol grip or if there was a switchover sometime during the "C" series production period to the squared-off pistol grip. The rounded one is considered older, and to some, more desireable.
---often, the buttplate is missing or has been replaced with a mis-matched buttplate.
---sometimes folks will have stamped their name or some such in the receiver, which depreciates the gun (unless of course the name is a well known figure).
---whether the gun is a take-down or solid frame model. Take-downs are more in demand, therefore, worth more.
---if the gun is a takedown model, look to make sure the same serial number is on the frame and right above it on the barrel extension. If there is no S/N on the frame extension or if there's a different one, you have mismatched parts.
---Barrel length on original guns were 30" or, optionally, 32". I'm not sure when the "brush gun" configuration became available, but these had a 26" barrel. Anything else probably represents a cut-off barrel.
---if the gun is unusually well-maintained and has most of the original finish intact and the wood is is similarly excellent condition, the gun is worth more. If the gun has been refinished, it falls back into the $300-$500 value category.
That "C" designation right above the S/N on the receiver is not part of the S/N, but designates an incremental design change. There are also "D" and "E" series guns, which came along later. "C" series guns came along in early 1898.
Your friend's gun was made in either 1899 or 1900. Look at the slide action rod on the left side of the gun ahead of the receiver. If it says,
WINCHESTER
MODEL 1897, your gun was made in 1899.
If it says,
MODEL 1897
WINCHESTER, your friend's gun was made in 1900.
With Winchester being a good size manufacturing business, engineering based. The one thing they had plenty of was Engineering Drawings or Blue Prints. Right now I'm looking at a couple of "Roll Die" blue prints as I type. Right on the drawing in the lower right corner, "ROLLS FOR INSCRIPTIONS ON BARRELS" and the other one, "USED ON BARREL INSPECTION JOB". Winchester had blue prints if you will for just about everything that was used in manufacturing, jigs, fixtures, cutters, etc.
The one thing I've never seen is a Blue Print for a "serial number roll dies". Do they exist, well I don't know. If they did, at one time I think I would have run accrossed it by now.
The roll dies I have prints on and the dies I have in my collection are 3in. in diameter, they all have barrel inscription information.
The purpose of the roll die if you will was to transfer from the roll die to a barrel the same information, over and over and over. These roll dies were first machined, then sent to be "hand cut" with what ever information that we now see on just about every firearm Winchester ever made, (well at least from the Md 1897 forward). I generally don't talk about black powder shotguns. While hundreds if not thousands of barrels could be identifed with one roll die, the cost of "engraving' became insignificant.
Now onto the infamous 1(one) that reads L.
Winchester pumps, such as the Md 1897/97, 1912/12 and the 42, have one thing in common, the carry point! The most common place to see carry wear on these is the front of the receciver and the receiver extention area of the gun, (happens to be the balance point of these models too). Now I've seen guns basically from about 0-20% condition, where the S/Ns on the receiver extention is almost non existant. S/Ns on the receiver readable but maybe a half to a third as deep as when it left the factory.
However out of all the shotguns I've looked at, the 2 most common models, 1897/97 and 1912/12. What's unique about these two? They happen to be the widest two receivers with the radius, (curvature) on the bottom of the receiver. When you look at the Md 1911 it's almost flat, the Md 50 and 59 have a much shallower radius.(left out the Md 20,21, & 24 simply because where the S/N is flat or almost flat).
Example when looking at Riffle's book page 6, it shows a picture of the first Md12, the "1" looks perfect, but it's almost dead center on both the receiver and extention. If you bounce ahead to page 12 you see S/N 1 again, but it's a 16ga. (Proof that S/Ns do repeat). again dead center and almost perfect.
Where do we see the infamous "L". I've only seen it on 6 digit and 7 digit serial numbers. 5 digit like 12345 the width is still narrow enough so the "1" isn't affected.
Strickley from a manufacturing point, "IF" a roll die was used on S/Ns, it's basically a one shot deal. Can you imagine the logistics nightmare to store a million roll dies, in hopes that they may be used again. Trying to keep track of them. Barrel roll dies were used until the inscriptions were determined to be getting to light, thrown away and the next roll die was used. Think about it a set of steel stamps 0 through 9 which could be used up to 2000 times, (Ref. Schwing, 42 book, pg 20). What's cheaper one set of steel stamps or 2000 hand cut roll dies??? Do the math!!
The roll die machine, held the die against the barrel under extreme pressure, and traveled a straight line if you will. It was not designed to go OVER a radius, like on the bottom of a 97/12 receiver. Think about it, it would have to come up, over and down, following the radius. We've all gone to the car wash, the big roll brush starts infront of the hood with minimal pressure, until it's on top of the hood, where it can have more pressure, then it lightens up as it rolls up the wind shield, (leaviing the bugs do to light pressure, LOL) then presses hard on the roof, light on the back window, hard again on the trunk. Point being, the roller sees the most pressure when traveling in a straight line, hood, roof, and trunk. On the up and down swing, light pressure.
"IF" Winchester used a roll die for S/Ns, both ends of the S/N would be lighter, than in the center. Not just the first number.
Now my research includes info from: Danny Alberino, long time Winchester employee and retired executive: FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE LATER 40s SERIAL NUMBERS WERE HAND STAMPED, AND RECORDED IN A LEDGER AND ON INDEX CARDS THAT STAYED WITH THE RECEIVER. This changed along about 1948 when an automatic index stamping machine was installed. (Ref. Riffle pg 147). But not all Winchesters followed this path from 1948 and on, Ref. Schwing, pg 20. "After all the polishing was completed and inspected, the S/N was HAND STAMPED on the receiver". This was done on the entire production run of Md 42s.
Sure the manufacturing requirements varied by "sequence" from model to model. But in all cases they went throught the same steps.
In conclusion, there is now way anyone will convince me that a roll die was ever used to serialize a receiver, UNTIL Blue Prints showing serial number roll dies, manufacturing work orders calling out for that tool etc etc. IMO Bert your wrong.
Ok people you are all intellegent enough to believe what you would like. But everything I've found indicates S/Ns on shotguns were HAND STAMPED.
Regards to all
Dave
You really need to stop mis-interpreting what I have explained several times in the past. The serial numbers on the Model 1892, 1894, and 1897, were not rolled stamp in the same fashion as the barrel markings, and they most definitely were not hand stamped either.
The die used for the serial numbers was an idexing "gang" stamp. The numerals could be turned (indexed) just like on an old fashion rubber date stamp. The gang stamp was slightly curved (to match the radius of the frame), and the receiver was locked into an alignment fixture so that a machine (under human control) could evenly and cleanly stamp the serial number into the frame in one single operation. You seem to have the erroneous misconception that every single digit of the serial numnber was hand stamped into the frame. If that were true, none of the digits would be perfectly spaced, or of uniform depth, and it would have been an extremely time intensive production task.
Over the years (and very intensely since we started this debate a few years ago), I have examined several thousand Model 1892, 1894, and 1897s. I can absolutely, positively, with ZERO doubts, tell you that the serial number digits were stamped with a machine in one single strike versus being individually hand during the years 1900 - 1902.
The first three pictures below are Model 1897s, and the latter three are Model 1894s (note the difference in how the "1" digit is shaped when it is not the leading or second digit). Also note the absolute even depth of the digits (even on the polished and reblued Model 1897).
Model 1894s...
WACA Historian & Life Member