Colt SAA/Artillery Revolver#2

JOHNW34223

I have two Colt SAA/Calvary 45 cal with serial #s below 8000 both with an "A" and one with an "HN" also one gun has the older style Colt engraving on the top of the barrel, from what I hear these guns have a lot of fakes, I bought four Colt SAA's over 20 years ago from an old timer I was friends with for years who according to his widow was considered one of the "Souths best Colt Experts" but who knows, I would simply like to know what I have ?
Any advise or info would be appreciated, thanks
Finally have some pics including both US Calvary and a Civilian 44-40 with nice Ivory custom grips, anyone know about these guns?
http://img191.imageshack.us/g/dscn0065c.jpg/

oakridge

I see one SAA with mixed serial numbers and a cut down barrel. If it has a U.S. marked frame, it is what collecters call the "artillery model". Cavalry models all have matching serial numbers and 7 1/2 in. barrels.

perry shooter

Hello all pictures show well used pistol with no original finish one looks like maybe Naval Jelly was used to remove finish. Both wood grip models Look like the grips are TOO good compared to the finish on the revolvers. The Ivory grips if real ivory are VERY NICE. I would spend the money to get Colt letters on all three . or maybe check around to see if this Gent had letters on then tucked away somewhere.

JOHNW34223

Perry, the man passed away almost 10 years ago, the one with ivory grips is a civilian 44-40, the other two are the Artillery models..

Oakridge,
I am learning once cut down at the factory the are called a "artillery model" sorry for the confusion, both have the US stamp and mixed serial #s, thanks

Spider7115

You may want to consider contacting John Kopec, the world-recognized expert and author on Colt Artillery Models. A letter of authentication from him carries a lot of weight in the collecting world and will contain a lot more detailed information than a factory letter.

http://www.johnakopec.com/

"We are pleased to offer this service to the discriminating collector or dealer. Each authentication letter relates the subject revolver's serial number to the data in our survey, provides a historical analysis of its probable unit of issue/service, summarizes unique or noteworthy features and lists replacement parts - noting any attempts at "faking." We estimate that almost 90% of Colt SAA Cavalry & Artillery revolvers currently being offered for sale, especially at shows - have been faked or "helped" in some way. Don't you get fooled! Ask for a money - back guarantee of authenticity - make sure all exceptions are disclosed and explained. Make provision of an authentication letter as condition of the sale. Protect your valuable investment - always get an authentication letter!"

Old-Colts

John,

As others have mentioned, Colt did perform refurbishment services for the government and modified their Single Actions to a 5 1/2 inch barrel configuration. Colt performed these services during two distinct periods.

The first refurbishment was during the 1895-96 period and during this effort Colt was not constrained by a critical turnaround time and was able to perform these services using their normal factory practices, so these Single Actions were handled in a manner that kept the parts matching, except in some cases the barrel was mismatched. There were a couple Single Actions out of this group that were returned with their 7 1/2 inch barrel intact. When you find Single Actions from this effort (Colt Archive Letter indicating it was returned during this period) with mismatched parts, that's usually an indication that they were later returned and refurbished again and the Colt Archive Letter will probably list that return also. There were 1,197 revolvers in this group.

The second refurbishment was during the 1900-03 period. During this refurbishment period Colt apparently had turnaround time constraints due to the Philippine Insurrections, so during this refurbishment expediency was a critical constraint on Colt's factory practices and they didn't attempt to keep the parts together; this is why you see Single Actions from this refurbishment with mismatched parts. In this latter effort in some cases Colt tried to keep matching trigger guard and back straps only because it required little to no fitting if the same grips were used. There were 5,444 revolvers in this group.

This is not a criticism, but the pictures you've provided simply are not adequate for us to truly give you a reasonable assessment of your revolvers. Evaluation and assessment of these "Artillery Model" revolvers is both an art and a science. You somewhat confused the issue by showing us three Single Actions (one a civilian model) and then a group of pictures that we couldn't easily differentiate between individual revolvers. None of us have the skills and expertise of John Kopec; he is the recognized authority when it comes to US issue Single Actions. We can provide valuable and fairly accurate feedback, but he is the ultimate assessor of these guns and a letter from him carries a lot of weight. If you would like us to provide you with our assessment, then we would need pictures that isolate to each individual revolver that you want assessed. Clear, in focus, high resolution pictures of all markings and features is absolutely critical; and even at that we do not have the knowledge and long standing experience of a John Kopec. One has to remember that the stampings are critical in the evaluation since Colt, during the first refurbishment, actually stamped the necessary leading digits of the serial number on parts like the cylinder to have a complete serial number, so you've had the leading numbers applied ahead of the typical last four numbers you see on these early revolvers. Add to that that they re-stamped serial numbers in some cases and it appears that they used the smaller D.A. stamps for this work.

It would probably cost you about $485 plus shipping and insurance per revolver to have them professionally assessed by John Kopec (Colt Archive Letter plus Kopec's fees), but worth it in the long run, certainly if they are 100% original Artillery Model revolvers.

By the way, some of us really enjoy looking at old Colt Single Actions, so thanks for the pictures!!!! If you would like us to provide you with a better assessment before contacting John Kopec, then as I mentioned clear, in focus, high resolution pictures of all markings and features is absolutely critical and they need to be segregated so that we know we are looking at individual revolvers.

I hope this helps!!!!

Bill

Also, I will edit this post later after I check a few resources so that I can verify which lots your serial numbers fall in and that will give us some indication of what unit your Colts might have been issued to.

Edit 1:

John,

Thanks for the clarification on the pictures; it would be nice to see better pictures when they are available.

Big Red Flag, the ejector rod housing does not mate flush with the frame! This is an area, even with a mixed number Artillery Model, that Colt would have properly fit to the Single Action. When you encounter a Single Action with that gap, you can pretty much figure that parts have been manipulated outside of the Factory. I can't critique any of the arsenals that handled these guns, but it would not have left Colt like that. I highly suspect that parts have been switched around post Colt Factory, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a real Artillery Model.

Potential Red Flag, the picture of the hammer spur isn't clear enough, but it appears to have bordered hand cut knurling without the slash below the lower (toward the firing pin) border and the knurling isn't long enough to be an early hammer. It appears to be a post about 1906 hammer.

Another Issue, the trigger looks too thick to be 1st Generation trigger and is possibly a postwar replacement. However, it might just be that the pictures aren't completely in focus and the blurring might be exacerbating the thickness.

By the way, if you bought all three of the pictured Single Actions from the same individual it is possible that parts may have been mistakenly switched between his Colts, possibly the three in the picture.

Please let me know if there is a separate slash below the border of the knurling on the hammer spur.

JOHNW34223

Bill, thank you so much for your quick reply, the only pic not of the gun in question is the shot with 3 guns, other than that all other pics are of the same gun, if you look at the zoom in versions moving left to right pic #6 you can see some marking like the "A" below the trigger guard and frame serial# and in pic# 4 the "A" under the hammer, what interests me most are the notches in pic #8, well over 20 notches on the barrel extending past the ejector, any idea what these notches could be?
I will get hi-res pics in the next few days and email to you, thanks again

oakridge

Another thing important to the value of the "artillerys" are the original grips. They should have the inspector's cartouche, and if part of the 2nd alteration will also have the date stamp.