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Tactical Scope Qustion
Suasponta
Member Posts: 41 ✭✭
I'm going to purchase a scope for my PRT-91 and had settled on two different makes. Either a Zeiss Rapid- z 1000. A Burris XTR 3X-12X -50mm. However, I recently saw a add for a Counter Sniper Crusader 3/25-56 a contractor over run for $650.00 which apparently is way below cost. I'd had never heard of the this maker before but according to the ad it supplies U.S. Military Snipers and is way below original cost. The one thing that kind of brothers me about it is the reticle layout. It has a Tactical cross, Tactical Distance Ranging Mil Dot (TDRM) rear plane reticle. Which is sort of cluttered, more so then the rapid -Z 1000 Christmas tree reticle. I'm not familiar using that military type of reticle. Would it be worth learning the layout of the counter sniper reticle because of the deal and the make of the scope, or should I stick with something I know and understand? And is the information on how to use the counter sniper scope readable available on the net? any thoughts?
Comments
dont add a 3 pound 20x scope, or 1000yrd BDC scope to a 18" barreled 9 pound PTR-91.I think the Rz1000 is meant to be used with magnum cartridges pushing bullets at 3000+fps.
The rifle itself is somewhat ballistically handycapped, something like 2300FPs isnt ideal velocity for long range shooting with .308win. It is perfect for shooting inside 600 yards.
Simple is my friend on a gun like this. A fixed x or simple first focal plane range estimating scope is all i'd need to make hits within 600yards after I'd used a ballistic reticle computer program to do the dope work for me...
You might need to get a trigger job.
a good scope mount
http://www.dsarms.com/HK-G3_91-CETME-Low-Mount--BT21174/productinfo/BT21174/
fixed X BDC
http://www.valdada.com/product/0bfa05e4-56c5-4f15-8972-1d60d16151e3.aspx
First focal plane range estimating reticle
http://swfa.com/IOR-25-10x42-Tactical-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P6493.aspx
Good luck whatever you choose.
quickmajik thanks for the info, the burris isn't as big as the counter sniper it's 3 X 12 military dot reticle and the RZ-1000 is rated for .308 however you make a good point about barral volcity. Zeiss also makes a RZ-600 and 800 rated for other rounds. Do you think that they would be better suited for the barrel volicity of the ptr-91?
I dont know... The average velocity of the 147 grain 308 bullet from a 22 inch barrel is 2800fps, the same load from a PTR-91 is 2600fps. A Commercial 168grain match load from A 22" barrel length is 2650, your PTR is down to 2450. with 175 grain match loads you are down to 2350. So thats what you need to figure out, which reticle will best suit the intended bullet weight/BC/velocity.
Thats why i like a simple generic reticle like the MP-8.
This is good software that can be used with just about any reticle under the sun
http://www.perry-systems.com/reticle_analysis.htm
Of those you listed,..I would go with Burris. I find zeiss glass to be very nice,..but their ability to be abused under combat conditions is IMHO, not up to par.
If you want true tactical ability, look at Nightforce NXS, IOR Valdada, US Optics, or at the very least, Leupold MK IV. I prefer the Nightforce NXS.
You want a reticle that is graduated in MOA (minute of angle) or inches. You then run a drop chart that works out to match your trajectory, and you can match the drop points or click the turrets to make your trajectory changes.
Since you already own the PRT-91 the choice really is down to the make and set up of the scope. However one of the variables regarding the use of particular scopes is whether or not you reload. You can banter around factory numbers and suppositions until you're blue in the face and not have accomplished anything useful if you can reload and do a better job with component selection and performance. You should try shooting long range first then gather your experiences then look at scopes.
Shooter who use the .308 Win. for long range shooting fall into two basic categories:
- Palma or similar competitions that use long barrels to get the most from the cartridge in order to stay above the supersonic threshold past 1,000 yards.
- Tactical competitions that also combine physical exertion with target shooting which mandates lighter, portable equipment. These rifles will have barrels ranging down to 18" and occasionally wearing suppressors or brakes at least.
I just finished shooting one the other days with an 18" barrel. It had a US Optics SN3 scope on it:
http://www.opticsplanet.net/us-optics-3-2-17x44-mm-sn3-t-pal-parallax-riflescope-with-erek-knob.html
The scope had the dual scale EREK knob and the GAP reticle which worked superbly out to the 1,000 yard targets.
Most of my long range shooting is done with Night Force scopes but the US Optics, March and Schmidt & Bender are next up on my list.
This is an excerpt from an article about long range shooting and target scopes:
"Schmidt & Bender's PMII line is a standard to which high-end long-range rifle scopes are judged. S&B is popular with European militaries, and is the issued scope for the British snipers using the Accuracy International rifle. Recently, the S&B 3-12x50 mm PMII won the contract for the new USMC sniper scope. The PMII is also available in 4-16x42 mm, 4-16x50 mm, and 5-25x56 mm configurations, with fourth-MOA or 0.1-mil clicks and a single-turn or two-turn zero-stop elevation knob. The single-turn gives 13 mils in one turn, and the double-turn between 22 and 26 mils total elevation. On the two-turn knob, if the knob is turned to the second revolution, a series of windows at the top of the knob switch to yellow to indicate the second turn is active. Reticle choices are mil-based, including mil-dot and several mil-hash types, and all are in the first focal-plane. Premier Reticle is providing Gen 2 mil-dot reticles for the USMC contract scopes. The PMII provides exceptional optical clarity and brightness. Compared to a similar USO SN-3, the PMII has a slightly larger exit pupil and more eye relief. The PMII is also smaller and lighter than the USO."
"After iterating through at least ten of these rifle scopes to figure out what worked best for me, I ended up with three S&B PMIIs. On my .260 Remington and .308 Accuracy International AW rifles, I run the 3-12x50 mm; on my .338 Lapua Magnum, I run the 5-25x56 mm. All have the double-turn elevation knob and feature 0.1-mil clicks, and all have the P4-Fine reticle, which is thin enough to obtain a sight picture on an IPSC target's head (6x6 inches) at 1000-yards. The P4-Fine reticle has hash marks every half mil, which means I can interchange dialing and holding off for elevation and windage easily. The double-turn elevation knob is easy to read and operate; it turns clockwise for "up" - opposite Leupold, Nightforce, and USO - which is more intuitive since the numbers increase left to right, just like we read. The 3-12x50's clarity along with the P4-Fine's simplicity allow good sight pictures on targets out to 1200 yards, and its compact size is a good fit to the short-action rifles. The extra magnification of the 5-25x56 mm is helpful on ultra-long-range targets with the 338 Lapua."
"Practical long-range rifle shooting wrings out the rifle to its effective distance and the shooter's ability to make first-round hits in the field. Rifle optics are key to making it happen. While a top-end scope will be a joy to shoot and will be a more effective tool than one you have to compromise on, remember that making hits is about skill and practice, not gimmicks and gear. Now get out there and ring some steel!"
http://demigodllc.com/articles/intro-long-range-rifle-scopes/
Shop around and do some more shooting before making a purchase just to be sure.
Best.
The PTR-91 is basically designed to shoot 150 gr. bullets. The 1-10" twist allows for heavier bullets, but not generally more accurate than the 150 due to the lighter barrel. Also, I noted with my CETME, which is the same design, I usually get about 200 fps less than with my 24" barreled bolt action.
I did one little load group with it and that included 150's, 165's, 168's and 175's. I got 2435 with the 175's. So even as quickmajik noted, even if you're lucky, you aren't going to get a lot of speed out of that heavy of a bullet in that action type.
Honestly I would stick with ern98's advice and throw something on there to see how it shoots at all first. If it isn't shooting within a less expensive, but known accurate scope then you're wasting money buying a top dollar scope that won't make it more accurate. When you get a known accurate rifle is when you put a USO, S&B, Nightforce, etc. on there. That is to take you down from 1/2" or 3/4" groups to 1/8" and 1/4" groups. You will find that gaining advantage in size of groups isn't a whole lot when it comes to top end optics. What you see is a whole difference in sight picture. Also, the repeatability helps in that as well. When you see better you shoot better...consistently. Great groups are then not just once in a while lucky things, but standard.
See how that rifle shoots before you throw top glass on it.