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.318 Westley Richards Rimless?

sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
edited August 2008 in Ask the Experts
Guys,


I was reading back a few posts and saw this one. I myself am intrigued. According to this you should not be able to make brass from a 30-06 into a .318 Westley-Richards. {EDIT: list removed..SW}

Now, I may be wrong in that there may be a difference between the .318 Westley-Richards and the .318 Nitro Express. I can't find the dimensions for the latter. Just some food for thought. I've never seen or handled either.

Hawk,

Sorry about that. It pretty well does describe the .338. My list maybe needs to be looked into whether or not I can change the dimensions to the .318.

EDIT:

Captain and nononsense,

Thanks for the posts. The cartridge itself holds a fascination for me in that it was supposedly the rifle borrowed by Patterson (Tsavo)that misfired. Obviously it wasn't, as the incident took place ten years prior to it being patented. Or at least it wasn't proprietary at the time. So, the next question that comes to mind is "Why is the cartridge named .318 when the diameter is .330?" "Is that the actual depth of the lands?, .006"(?)."

Comments

  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    All I see is a list, no dimensions, no forming procedures.
    The illustrated example appears to be a .338 Win Mag.
    Are you getting something I am not?
  • captkirk3@dslextreme.comcaptkirk3@dslextreme.com Member Posts: 3,804
    edited November -1
    .318 Rimless/Nitro-Express...Cartridge developed by Westly Richards about 1910 and introduced for their bolt Action, Mauser type, Magazine rifles Other gunmakers have also chambered bolt action rifles for the round. It has been a very popular all-round cartridge with African hunters for any non dangerous game.
    General Comments; The .318 can be used in standard length bolt actions and fairly light rifles. The .318 case is very similar to the 30-06 in in size, shape and capacity. The 30-06 can be loaded with 250-gr. bullets to duplicate the performance of the .318. The 180-gr.is used on lighter animals, but the 250-gr. is prefered for heavy Game..Bullet types were in solid, soft point and the Westly Richards copper-capped. The cartridge has been used with great success on North American big game. .330 diameter bullets are not made by American bullet makers. However, .333 could be Swaged down and used...
    This is copied from Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes..4th Edition...
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    sandwarrior,

    .318 Westley-Richards

    (a.k.a. .318 Nitro Express, .318 Rimless Nitro Express, .318 Express, .318 Accelerated Express)

    318rimlesskysolidcpbt2rn4.png

    318rimlesskycpnkbtek1.png

    318rimlesswestleyricharpw3.png

    318rimlesswr2tn0.png

    I switched my schedule around and went to the barrel shop to get some work done knowing that I could slug some original barrels and work with some of the references that I leave there. I have converted the numbers into decimal to save some effort.

    CIP dimensions

    Bore = 0.3177" (+0.0007") ***Hence the name.

    Groove = 0.3299" (+0.00118)

    Projectile diameter = 0.330"

    Measuring 2-original factory W-R barrels by slugging, I got the dimensions:

    Bore = 0.315"/0.317"

    Groove = 0.323"/0.328"

    Measuring some early European bullets, the diameters read 0.327 up through 0.330" for a current manufactured lot.

    Dave Kiff said that he has 7 variation in his British cartridge reamer drawings.

    When I get a few more minutes, I'll call Woody at Lothar Walther and get some information from him. He has been fairly encyclopedic on past occasions.

    On the whole, the barrel dimensions are not clarified (obviously) until established by CIP and at that time the dimensions are significantly larger than some 'original' barrels. So the adage of slug your barrel before loading and shooting carries extra emphasis.

    Best.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nononsense,

    Thanks again for the added information. You ain't kidding about slugging barrels! Brings to mind just exactly how important it is to start low and work up while reloading too. One could easily overpressure a case with a .323" grove dia. and a .330" bullet. Even a .327" bullet would add more pressure than one might think.

    Excellent pictures too, by the way.
    ... If not, I may have to pull a Bert and take a few days off for some research. Maybe tie it into some scouting for a future hunt...

    That is never a bad thing[:D]...is it?? Thanks again.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    sandwarrior,

    Thank you but I can't take credit as the photos are from a website that sells individual cartridges at horrific mark ups. It's a place where you can find that one cartridge you always wanted if you are willing to pay for it.

    The bore slugging and additional searching made for an eye-opening experience. We were aware of inconsistencies but the actual dimensions were still surprising. I've located a couple more complete original .318 W-R rifles that I can borrow to slug also. I have a call into W-R to ask some questions if they still have some of the original factory books. That could prove to be interesting if they'll do a little looking for me. If not, I may have to pull a Bert and take a few days off for some research. Maybe tie it into some scouting for a future hunt...

    Best.
  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nononsense
    sandwarrior,

    Thank you but I can't take credit as the photos are from a website that sells individual cartridges at horrific mark ups. It's a place where you can find that one cartridge you always wanted if you are willing to pay for it.



    Just as a FYI, the site is www.ammo-one.com and is aimed at people that collect cartridges, not at shooters. His prices are high, but still cheaper than buying the entire box and than giving away the other 19 round (or 9 rounds in the case of the Kynoch ammo).
    I was introduced to him by Iconoclast (they're buddies) at one of the big cartridge shows.

    NoNonsense
    No "impuninage" implied/taken, and yes Dave C. at ammo one is a good guy to talk to. Bottom line is yes, he charges double what a cartridge costs him (IE if a box costs him $20 for 20, he charges $2 / cartridge. This does tie up a fair amount of his capital in inventory).
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tailgunner1954,

    Thanks for adding the link for Ammo-One, I forgot to include it for some reason.

    I'm not impugning the man or his business but simply commenting on the prices listed for the cartridges. I've spoken with them a couple of times and they were very helpful. I'm not a collector but I understand the idea behind offering single cartridges for collectors. By comparison, Kynoch USA lists a box of .318 Rimless for $62.50 and this is for a box of 10 (ten) cartridges.

    David Little, the proprietor of Kynoch, is very reachable for help regarding the procurement of their line of cartridges and cases. David is a most genuine and extremely likable man and loves to talk ammunition and Big Game rifles:

    http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/

    The USA supplier is:

    M.W. Reynolds
    Traditional Country Sports

    http://www.kynochusa.com/Cartridges.html

    318rimlessnewm6.jpg

    Developed by Westley Richards around 1910 for use in their Mauser type bolt action rifles this has been and still is a very popular round for use against non-dangerous game. (from Kynoch)

    I found this to be an interesting variation on the current methods of cleaning rifle barrels:

    Boiling-out Funnel
    A traditional Edwardian design made in England using original machinery

    kynochboilingoutfunnelcn6.jpg

    Available in the following standard sizes :-
    .275 H&H .300/.375 H&H. 300 H&H. 308. 318 WR. 416 Rigby. 450/400 3".
    470. 500 Jeffery. 505 Gibbs
    For black powder users :-
    .577/450 MH & .577 Snider
    Other sizes available to special order.
    ?48 each

    48.00 GBP = $94.7213 USD (today's conversion)

    Best.

    Tailgunner1954,

    Understood. That's why I don't collect or stockpile for other folks, the overhead can eat you alive... If I am a collector of anything, I am a collector of convenience. If something shows up at a reasonable price and I like it, I buy it. But I don't go out of my way to find some of these things. Ammo-One fulfills a need for some collectors while the rest of us could be called scroungers of opportunity.

    Collecting wildcats is much easier for me because I can make almost any of them that I want to have as an example and have extras to swap. Unfortunately, I don't have time for even this right now.

    What? No comment on the Boiling-out Funnel?[:D] I thought everyone would get a chuckle out of that!

    I've thought about putting together a turn screw/oiler/cleaning kit to go along with some of the finer Bolt guns and include this funnel. It's period correct and would be utilitarian as well as a conversion piece. Frivolous thinking I guess... the ones made from Delrin or nylon are too easy and cheap.

    Best.
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