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Rescind Medals of Honor from soldiers at Wounded Knee
A better way may be to honor the Native Americans in some way.
What was done at the time may have seemed correct with the views of the people.
You nailed it. Here's an example (Below link) of why the white man carried such hatred for the red man during the making of America. The fact of the matter here is that Americans have to live with their sins, just like the Indian nations have to live with their sins, and the black, race hustling reparations bunch and their supporters must live with their sins. Dishonest Abe might say were he alive today, "It's time to root, hog, or die." And, that seems to be the direction we are heading as a nation.
At the most brutal massacre in American history, probably far more white women and children were brutally murdered by the Creek Indians than at Wounded Knee - Where are they remembered every other day in the news media?:
A better way may be to honor the Native Americans in some way.
What was done at the time may have seemed correct with the views of the people.
You nailed it. Here's an example (Below link) of why the white man carried such hatred for the red man during the making of America. The fact of the matter here is that Americans have to live with their sins, just like the Indian nations have to live with their sins, and the black, race hustling reparations bunch and their supporters must live with their sins. Dishonest Abe might say were he alive today, "It's time to root, hog, or die." And, that seems to be the direction we are heading as a nation.
At the most brutal massacre in American history, probably far more white women and children were brutally murdered by the Creek Indians than at Wounded Knee - Where are they remembered every other day in the news media?:
There were horrible massacres and killings on both sides it was a war to the knife a war that both sides did things that today cannot be imagined.
One thing that is very interesting is most of the MOA recipients were immigrants and if you look at MOH recipients from the Indian wars were given to immigrants, Indians and Blacks. Most of the MOH recipients at Little Big Horn were given to men coming to the aid of others.
Little know fact is the Army had 4 Hotchkiss cannons at Wounded Knee and these guns caused most of the casualties on both sides.
I think it is a mistake to rescind these medals. Are we to go back and review every Medal of Honor winner, going back to the Civil War, and see which ones should be revoked?
And after that, review every man who has a statue somewhere, and if we find he did something wrong, should we tear his statue down. I see the guy pushing this is from California. That figures.
A better way may be to honor the Native Americans in some way.
What was done at the time may have seemed correct with the views of the people.
You nailed it. Here's an example (Below link) of why the white man carried such hatred for the red man during the making of America. The fact of the matter here is that Americans have to live with their sins, just like the Indian nations have to live with their sins, and the black, race hustling reparations bunch and their supporters must live with their sins. Dishonest Abe might say were he alive today, "It's time to root, hog, or die." And, that seems to be the direction we are heading as a nation.
At the most brutal massacre in American history, probably far more white women and children were brutally murdered by the Creek Indians than at Wounded Knee - Where are they remembered every other day in the news media?:
There were horrible massacres and killings on both sides it was a war to the knife a war that both sides did things that today cannot be imagined.
One thing that is very interesting is most of the MOA recipients were immigrants and if you look at MOH recipients from the Indian wars were given to immigrants, Indians and Blacks. Most of the MOH recipients at Little Big Horn were given to men coming to the aid of others.
Little know fact is the Army had 4 Hotchkiss cannons at Wounded Knee and these guns caused most of the casualties on both sides.
Thanks for the knowledge about the Hotchkiss at Wounded Knee being the cause of most of the casualties there, which brings to my mind the conscience of men in general, and how they might treat defenseless people be they men, women or children. There are countless examples of warriors in such situations that would not kill defenseless individuals, and there are those that would shoot them in the back, scalp and mutilate them in many ways. One example being of the Creek Indian who killed three of his fellow Creek warriors who where brutally murdering women and children. Chief William Weatherford, himself, did everything he could to stop the horrible carnage the savages among them were rendering, and in return his own life was threatened.
Note: Most all of us should remember our very good and dear friend pwillie, and maybe most of us remember that he is descended from the Chief of the Creek Nation, William Weatherford...whose life was spared at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend in Alabama by Old Hickory.
Since some believe wrongs of the past should be 'righted' such as rescinding the Medals of Honor from soldiers at wounded Knee and believe tearing down Confederate statues of the Confederate military and give reparations to ?? because some long deceased former individuals were sold into slavery by their brothers ... do you also believe ALL the lands in the United States of America be returned to the American Indian tribes because it was stolen from them too?
It is in the past and is history..........and history is what it is :!:
The government has no rights. Only the people have rights which empowers the government.
We have enough gun laws, what we need is IDIOT control.
Blood makes you related. Loyalty makes you family.
The problem with the idea of going back in history in order to make changes in decisions made, can and does erase the actual history that took place. The records that are on the books have enough problems with those that originally recorded them. Making changes in the present day will blot out the facts of what actually took place, along with the people that were alive making the history recorded.
My position, is that the award - of our Nations most prestigious Honor for Valor in the face of the enemy in Combat, is seriously diluted/degraded/made of less Value, and yes, somewhat disgraced by wholesale awarding 20 MOH's. (For this one action?)
Different time or not. The fact is that these Cavalry Soldier's, rode into a camp of mainly Old Men, Women, and Children - wholesale slaughtered them, then received more MOH's, than probably all of the Marines in WWII. (If I am incorrect here, I am sure it will be pointed out.)
Sorry, not justified. Nor warranted in any way, shape, form or fashion. Your view may differ.
My view, is my view. (And) Will remain as such.
I discussed this thread, and my position to quite a few Combat Veterans, at work today. Thay all, (to a Man) agreed with me. (Not that that means anything.)
Since some believe wrongs of the past should be 'righted' such as rescinding the Medals of Honor from soldiers at wounded Knee and believe tearing down Confederate statues of the Confederate military and give reparations to ?? because some long deceased former individuals were sold into slavery by their brothers ... do you also believe ALL the lands in the United States of America be returned to the American Indian tribes because it was stolen from them too?
You are confusing and attempting to intigrate seperate issues, into the discussion at hand.
We were attempting to discuss the awarding of 20 MOH's, for the action at Wounded Knee.
The white man murdered his way across this country, taking whatever he wanted, giving nothing back but the death and destruction of a once thriving
nation of people just trying to live in "THEIR" world, lying to anyone that had ears and NEVER keeping one single promise to those he sought to displace.
Awarding our nations highest honor to a band of murderers is shameful and should be corrected. Come on folks, we are not those people ........ the ones that kill anything that doesn't look like us. I would think that after a hundred some odd years that we have grown intelligent enough and educated enough to see what a travesty awarding those medals for that act of abomination truly is.
We certainly can't bring back the dead but we could gain some "Honor" back for the Medal of Honor and show that we as a people don't glorify ourselves
for horrible acts of our past.
I'm sure that all of us here would do all we could to see a previously unacknowledged hero awarded the Medal of Honor no matter how many years have passed since his act of heroism ............. why then the hesitation to rescind the same medal from those who didn't honorably earn it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I agree with this post.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If all they killed were old men, women and children, how did we get 25 dead and 45 wounded soldiers?
Shhhhh, don't confuse this with FACTS.
The government has no rights. Only the people have rights which empowers the government.
We have enough gun laws, what we need is IDIOT control.
Blood makes you related. Loyalty makes you family.
Sure and they need to tell China to stop worshipping Mao Tse-tung and cut off all dealings with the communist regime there.He killed millions of people and American soldiers too and what does our government do ? Ignore it! It's all for show anyway. Total war I suppose really started against the American Indians. They Killed women, children and civilians, all of them so man's governments kill all of his kind and types in warfare.
If all they killed were old men, women and children, how did we get 25 dead and 45 wounded soldiers?
They surrounded the encampment and shot each other for the most part, after it started there were a few revolvers in camp, and the Indians did the best they could.
If all they killed were old men, women and children, how did we get 25 dead and 45 wounded soldiers?
They surrounded the encampment and shot each other for the most part, after it started there were a few revolvers in camp, and the Indians did the best they could.
If all they killed were old men, women and children, how did we get 25 dead and 45 wounded soldiers?
Shhhhh, don't confuse this with FACTS.
Your last/previous post, that I quoted (prior to this one.) Pretty well sums up your contribution to this thread. Obscure/Obfuscate etc. (Trying to include various other arguments that you would like to include, beyond the fact that we were and are [only] discussing the Action and the awarding of 20 MOH's at Wounded Knee.)
Deflect as you will. The facts will not change, however much you would like them to.
This action did not merit 20 MOH recipients. Argue to the contrary as much as you would like, that will not change that simple fact.
The only criteria for awarding the MOH during the time of Wounded Knee was the same as it was for the approximate 30 years prior. The soldiers had to "distinguish themselves by their gallantry in action, and other soldier-like qualities." Pretty ambiguous.
Here are a few of the official citations from Wounded Knee.
Corporal Paul H. Weinert, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 29 December 1890, while serving with Battery E, 1st U.S. Artillery, in action at Wounded Knee Creek, South Dakota. Taking the place of his commanding officer who had fallen severely wounded, Corporal Weinert gallantly served his piece, after each fire advancing it to a better position. Awarded 24 March 1891
Private Joshua B. Hartzog, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 29 December 1890, while serving with Company E, 1st U.S. Artillery, in action at Wounded Knee Creek, South Dakota. Private Hartzog went to the rescue of the commanding officer who had fallen severely wounded, picked him up, and carried him out of range of the hostile guns. Awarded 24 March 1891.
Sergeant George Loyd, United States Army, for bravery, especially after having been severely wounded through the lung on 29 December 1890, while serving with Company I, 7th U.S. Cavalry, in action at Wounded Knee Creek, South Dakota. Awarded 16 April 1891.
At the time, the American Indian was 'the enemy' and total elimination was thought by many as the best solution. Even Frank Baum who is noted for writing "The Wizard of Oz" stated "The only good Indian, is a dead Indian."
At this rate, with the 'rewriting of history' and proposals to pay reparations to negros 'cause over a century ago some were slaves, it won't be long and some loon will proclaim to rescind the Medals of Honor given the those who fought in WWI and in WWII because now we are friendly with the Germans and the Japanese.
I would use a different example. Medal of Honor recipients at the 1914 Battle of Vera Cruz. Which has lately been called the "Occupation of Vera Cruz". Given today's political climate I think this is more susceptible to revision than actions of WWI and WWII.
There were approximately 36 Medal of Honor recipients for actions at Vera Cruz. Like it or not, the requirements for receiving a Medal of Honor have changed over the years. I think it could be asserted a whole host of recipients from years past may be considered to come up short given today's more stringent standards, politics aside, based only on battlefield endeavors.
Apparently military medals have become participation awards of varying degrees....
Well I was there and I got 5 awards:
CIB
Pres Unit citation(Awarded to the unit but I wore it my whole career because I was in the unit when it was earned)
Star on my Jump wings(Combat Jump Device I got another one for Panama)
Armed forces Evidentiary medal with arrow head(I have 4 of these)
Combat patch on my right shoulder
I know a few guys who got Bronze Stars and Doc Trujillo earned a Silver Star. They passed out ARCOMs with a V to several guys too.
Most of the people you are describing are Officers.
Sam, my former bil was in Grenada also. It?s been awhile so I don?t recall his unit (possibly the 82nd?) or if he jumped in or not. Somehow I recall him going off a cliff and damn near dying. He was in a wheelchair from injuries received for many years. I recently saw a fb post where he?s standing/walking some now. Too many folks tend to minimize or simply forget that some serious business took place there. (I won?t post his name here but could send it privately.) He was always a really decent guy and hard as nails.
Chris a lot of guys got hurt there. I lost several buddys it was a fight but them main thing is it was a total goat rope. Too many moving pieces too many Chiefs not enough intel. We didn't even have maps. I was a M60 gunner and a newly minted Sp4
He never talked in much detail about the operation, even then I understood the reasons, but, as you have mentioned, he didn?t hold back on the mess that existed.
This would set a dangerous precedent, I view it in the same terms as tearing down memorials of our Nations history.
Sorry Sir, I personally believe you are wrong/incorrect.
This never was a "Medal of Honor," worthy event. The fact there were 20, handed out, was ludicrous.
Save them for the Soldiers, who actually earned them.
(Again) My Personal Opinion.
It is short sighted IMO and not wise to swing open the door on reversing history. Put an asterisk next to them if one likes but rescinding medals is no different than tearing down memorials, or removing portraits of founding father's who were slave owners, or digging up soldiers remains from national cemeteries because someone deemed those not worthy hundreds of years later. I do not see where it accomplishes anything constructive other than making someone with an agenda feel good about themselves. History is written by the victors.
Although I do believe the whole ordeal was the tragedy that should not have happened.
I was not there to know what these 20 people did to earn the metal. Even though the battle was wrong, these men did what they were told to do. A soldier should not have a conscience, a soldier should do what his superiors tell him to do. To do anything less would be grounds for court-martial...
Before I would agree that these men should have their medals stripped from them, I would have to know what is each individual did to get it in the first place. and the awarding of it should be on their own merits of their actions in battle., not the merits of the decisions of their Commanders. Conversely, if they did not show Merit for receiving it by their actions in battle they should be stripped of it...
Just because the massacre shouldn't have took place, does not mean these men that received these metals did not show the bravery it takes in the battle to receive the metal. And if they demonstrated that bravery, they should not be stripped of their mouths just because of the decisions of their Commanders
I know others here will disagree with what I'm saying, but I'm not one to believe that somebody should be penalized for the decisions of others...
To strip these men of their metals just because the battle is deemed wrong today, will lay presidents for soldiers in the future to start disobeying orders given to them by their commanding officers just because they may think it's wrong.
The only criteria for awarding the MOH during the time of Wounded Knee was the same as it was for the approximate 30 years prior. The soldiers had to "distinguish themselves by their gallantry in action, and other soldier-like qualities." Pretty ambiguous.
So we are literally arguing about something that, when it happened, was in accord with the then current requirements.
These 20 MOH were awarded according to the criteria OF THE DAY. The criteria has since changed and these 20 would not have been awarded if TODAY?S criteria were in place.
So - regardless of all the hoopla in this thread, the awards were actually issued according to the criteria.
”People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Comments
You nailed it. Here's an example (Below link) of why the white man carried such hatred for the red man during the making of America. The fact of the matter here is that Americans have to live with their sins, just like the Indian nations have to live with their sins, and the black, race hustling reparations bunch and their supporters must live with their sins. Dishonest Abe might say were he alive today, "It's time to root, hog, or die." And, that seems to be the direction we are heading as a nation.
At the most brutal massacre in American history, probably far more white women and children were brutally murdered by the Creek Indians than at Wounded Knee - Where are they remembered every other day in the news media?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Mims_massacre#/media/File:Ft._Mims_sign.JPG
+1
There were horrible massacres and killings on both sides it was a war to the knife a war that both sides did things that today cannot be imagined.
One thing that is very interesting is most of the MOA recipients were immigrants and if you look at MOH recipients from the Indian wars were given to immigrants, Indians and Blacks. Most of the MOH recipients at Little Big Horn were given to men coming to the aid of others.
Little know fact is the Army had 4 Hotchkiss cannons at Wounded Knee and these guns caused most of the casualties on both sides.
And after that, review every man who has a statue somewhere, and if we find he did something wrong, should we tear his statue down. I see the guy pushing this is from California. That figures.
Thanks for the knowledge about the Hotchkiss at Wounded Knee being the cause of most of the casualties there, which brings to my mind the conscience of men in general, and how they might treat defenseless people be they men, women or children. There are countless examples of warriors in such situations that would not kill defenseless individuals, and there are those that would shoot them in the back, scalp and mutilate them in many ways. One example being of the Creek Indian who killed three of his fellow Creek warriors who where brutally murdering women and children. Chief William Weatherford, himself, did everything he could to stop the horrible carnage the savages among them were rendering, and in return his own life was threatened.
Note: Most all of us should remember our very good and dear friend pwillie, and maybe most of us remember that he is descended from the Chief of the Creek Nation, William Weatherford...whose life was spared at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend in Alabama by Old Hickory.
It is in the past and is history..........and history is what it is :!:
We have enough gun laws, what we need is IDIOT control.
Blood makes you related. Loyalty makes you family.
I thought getting old would take longer. :shock:
I strongly say, leave dead dogs lie.
Different time or not. The fact is that these Cavalry Soldier's, rode into a camp of mainly Old Men, Women, and Children - wholesale slaughtered them, then received more MOH's, than probably all of the Marines in WWII. (If I am incorrect here, I am sure it will be pointed out.)
Sorry, not justified. Nor warranted in any way, shape, form or fashion. Your view may differ.
My view, is my view. (And) Will remain as such.
I discussed this thread, and my position to quite a few Combat Veterans, at work today. Thay all, (to a Man) agreed with me. (Not that that means anything.)
You are confusing and attempting to intigrate seperate issues, into the discussion at hand.
We were attempting to discuss the awarding of 20 MOH's, for the action at Wounded Knee.
Nothing more.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I agree with this post.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Shhhhh, don't confuse this with FACTS.
We have enough gun laws, what we need is IDIOT control.
Blood makes you related. Loyalty makes you family.
I thought getting old would take longer. :shock:
serf
They surrounded the encampment and shot each other for the most part, after it started there were a few revolvers in camp, and the Indians did the best they could.
"Shhhhh, don't confuse this with FACTS."
(But) Still, this was merit to 20 MOH's? (Do you still Seriously believe that?) Laughable on it's face.
(And) I never said that was "all" they killed.
It was predominately so.
Your last/previous post, that I quoted (prior to this one.) Pretty well sums up your contribution to this thread. Obscure/Obfuscate etc. (Trying to include various other arguments that you would like to include, beyond the fact that we were and are [only] discussing the Action and the awarding of 20 MOH's at Wounded Knee.)
Deflect as you will. The facts will not change, however much you would like them to.
This action did not merit 20 MOH recipients. Argue to the contrary as much as you would like, that will not change that simple fact.
Here are a few of the official citations from Wounded Knee.
Corporal Paul H. Weinert, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 29 December 1890, while serving with Battery E, 1st U.S. Artillery, in action at Wounded Knee Creek, South Dakota. Taking the place of his commanding officer who had fallen severely wounded, Corporal Weinert gallantly served his piece, after each fire advancing it to a better position. Awarded 24 March 1891
Private Joshua B. Hartzog, United States Army, for extraordinary heroism on 29 December 1890, while serving with Company E, 1st U.S. Artillery, in action at Wounded Knee Creek, South Dakota. Private Hartzog went to the rescue of the commanding officer who had fallen severely wounded, picked him up, and carried him out of range of the hostile guns. Awarded 24 March 1891.
Sergeant George Loyd, United States Army, for bravery, especially after having been severely wounded through the lung on 29 December 1890, while serving with Company I, 7th U.S. Cavalry, in action at Wounded Knee Creek, South Dakota. Awarded 16 April 1891.
More information here.
https://armyatwoundedknee.com/gallantry-in-action/
I would use a different example. Medal of Honor recipients at the 1914 Battle of Vera Cruz. Which has lately been called the "Occupation of Vera Cruz". Given today's political climate I think this is more susceptible to revision than actions of WWI and WWII.
https://www.thoughtco.com/mexican-revolution-occupation-of-veracruz-2360858
There were approximately 36 Medal of Honor recipients for actions at Vera Cruz. Like it or not, the requirements for receiving a Medal of Honor have changed over the years. I think it could be asserted a whole host of recipients from years past may be considered to come up short given today's more stringent standards, politics aside, based only on battlefield endeavors.
The Invasion of Grenada under President Reagan.
Less then 6000 troops on the ground.
18 US troops killed
< 100 US troops wounded
8,337 awards presented!
Many recepients spent the entire invasion in NC and Washington DC.
Apparently, flying a desk is a lot more dangerous than when I served. Something is very wrong here.
Most of these participants are still alive. Congress can call them in and question them.
275 - Valor/death,
4581 - Commendation,
2495 - Achievment,
681 - Bronze Stars,
+ other.
Apparently military medals have become participation awards of varying degrees....
That?s a good direction to take I think :idea:
Well I was there and I got 5 awards:
CIB
Pres Unit citation(Awarded to the unit but I wore it my whole career because I was in the unit when it was earned)
Star on my Jump wings(Combat Jump Device I got another one for Panama)
Armed forces Evidentiary medal with arrow head(I have 4 of these)
Combat patch on my right shoulder
I know a few guys who got Bronze Stars and Doc Trujillo earned a Silver Star. They passed out ARCOMs with a V to several guys too.
Most of the people you are describing are Officers.
It is short sighted IMO and not wise to swing open the door on reversing history. Put an asterisk next to them if one likes but rescinding medals is no different than tearing down memorials, or removing portraits of founding father's who were slave owners, or digging up soldiers remains from national cemeteries because someone deemed those not worthy hundreds of years later. I do not see where it accomplishes anything constructive other than making someone with an agenda feel good about themselves. History is written by the victors.
They sent me an award 'cause I lived next door to a guy that served in Washington during the the invasion of Grenada.
I was not there to know what these 20 people did to earn the metal. Even though the battle was wrong, these men did what they were told to do. A soldier should not have a conscience, a soldier should do what his superiors tell him to do. To do anything less would be grounds for court-martial...
Before I would agree that these men should have their medals stripped from them, I would have to know what is each individual did to get it in the first place. and the awarding of it should be on their own merits of their actions in battle., not the merits of the decisions of their Commanders. Conversely, if they did not show Merit for receiving it by their actions in battle they should be stripped of it...
Just because the massacre shouldn't have took place, does not mean these men that received these metals did not show the bravery it takes in the battle to receive the metal. And if they demonstrated that bravery, they should not be stripped of their mouths just because of the decisions of their Commanders
I know others here will disagree with what I'm saying, but I'm not one to believe that somebody should be penalized for the decisions of others...
To strip these men of their metals just because the battle is deemed wrong today, will lay presidents for soldiers in the future to start disobeying orders given to them by their commanding officers just because they may think it's wrong.
These 20 MOH were awarded according to the criteria OF THE DAY. The criteria has since changed and these 20 would not have been awarded if TODAY?S criteria were in place.
So - regardless of all the hoopla in this thread, the awards were actually issued according to the criteria.