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Gentlemen, your 'diagnosis' ??

forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
The below pic is the .25-25 Stevens fired brass, showing the rear of the brass.
The load data re Cartridges of the World is 5.5grs. of Unique behind an 85gr. bullet. However, the bullets weighed 91gr., I reduced the Unique to 5gr.
The firing pin strikes the primer at an upward angle as opposed to straight center, and the tip of the pin is flat, not rounded. The pic shows how the cartridge is orientated in the chamber, with an upward strike of the firing pin.
To me the primer shows signs of too much pressure, maybe as a result of the heavier bullet ???  And the primer is now flush with the rear of the brass or slightly above.
YOUR THOUGHTS ,,,,,


Comments

  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭
    Interesting.  The only time I have ever seen a flat pin is with rimfires. Its old rifle, so no telling what has been done to it or how it was made (parts clean up).  I would make it (or a replacement) hemispherical.  It also looks to me that the fit isn't all that wonderful, perhaps it needs bushed or a better fit if you make a new pin.
    What primer are you using?  I think Unique of today is the same as old Unique, not true for BlueDot.
    How much bullet travel is there before engaging the rifling? Bullet size and slugged bore is what?
    How much head space, perhaps the rims are a little thin; maybe the chamber was cut a tad deep - specs in the old days...

  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Charlie,,,,,I’ve have different bullets on the way, perhaps they will be proper weight. IIRC there is a vendor that carries some parts, maybe new firing pins. I can make another if needed.
    I’m using Federal SR primers. The bullets measure .257” and the bore is .256.
    I will load some of the new bullets before changing anything else. I’ll keep you advised,,,,,,providing you don’t tell me you can make brass for .79¢, after I spent $3.00 per ea.   ;)

  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,876 ✭✭✭
    edited February 23
    Forge, The strike looks low, and Charlie mentioning headspace makes me think the breech block screw may be worn. They're the weak point in all the older Stevens single shots. They are a tad softer than the parts that pivot on them, so they get the wear. Wisner's makes replacements that tighten things back up to spec.
    With the hammer cocked, does the lever snap up tight to the bottom tang?
    How much of the case is filled with that load?
    Edit to add: Re-reading the case filler thread, I'm not sure some understand the reason for using it. Too much airspace can leave the reduced charge laying in the bottom side of the case when horizontal. So instead of the primer igniting the bottom of the charge for a controlled burn, it flashes/ignites the whole charge all at once. That creates a massive pressure spike that can easily equal, or exceed a double charge.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    TRAP55 said:
    Forge, The strike looks low, and Charlie mentioning headspace makes me think the breech block screw may be worn. They're the weak point in all the older Stevens single shots. They are a tad softer than the parts that pivot on them, so they get the wear. Wisner's makes replacements that tighten things back up to spec.
    With the hammer cocked, does the lever snap up tight to the bottom tang?
    How much of the case is filled with that load?
    Trap55,,,,,yes, the lever cams over tight and remains in the closed position. There is absolutely no fore/aft movement of the breach block when closed.
    Very little of the case is filled with 5gr. of Unique. 
    By all indications this rifle has been shot very little and well taken care of.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,876 ✭✭✭
    edited February 23
    "Very little of the case is filled with 5gr. of Unique."
    Read my edit on a case filler above. Did you happen to chrono that one when you shot it?

  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    TRAP55 said:
    "Very little of the case is filled with 5gr. of Unique."
    Read my edit on a case filler above. Did you happen to chrono that one when you shot it?

    I will use a dacron filler next time, no I did not chrono.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,876 ✭✭✭
    I'd make a safe bet it was a little faster than what the load data said. :)
    Did the rest of that case look okay?
  • pip5255pip5255 Member Posts: 1,540 ✭✭✭
    edited February 23
    my lyman book shows 4 to 6 gr of unique for 85 gr bullet, it looks ok to me but try loading 4 gr, what your doing is trial and error and I always start trials at the low end.

    just for reading  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25-25_Stevens
    just because you could doesn't mean you should
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    TRAP55 said:
    I'd make a safe bet it was a little faster than what the load data said. :)
    Did the rest of that case look okay?
    Yes, the case(s) look fine,,,,,,
  • pip5255pip5255 Member Posts: 1,540 ✭✭✭
    edited February 23
    I just noticed Charlie post showing a falling block action and if you have that type they are loose and will allow a bit more pressure pushing everything rearward
    I just ran the numbers on a 90 gr bullet with 4.5 gr of unique and a sr primer you should reach 1034 ft per sec providing all things are correct, also unique is a fast burning powder and designed to burn very rapidly to obtain maximum pressure. 
    I would still start at the 4 gr and work up from there especially with that type action.

    if you try using fillers remember to add the weight of the filler to the projectile weight since you will need to push that along with the bullet out the muzzle so lighter should be better but I really don't know since I never used any.
    just because you could doesn't mean you should
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 22,321 ******
    edited February 23
    I'm moving this to the reloading Forum for further discussion.
    Carry on, and let's see if anyone cries the same way the guys in GD do when their Gun Rights and Political threads are moved. 
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Mark, no worries. As long as you securely packed the good china before the move !   :D
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member Posts: 9,181 ✭✭✭
    "I will use a dacron filler next time, no I did not chrono."............just to note; in the old 'single shot journal' there several several right=ups about dacron and 'ringed' chambers, I use  cotton for a filler
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    "I will use a dacron filler next time, no I did not chrono."............just to note; in the old 'single shot journal' there several several right=ups about dacron and 'ringed' chambers, I use  cotton for a filler
    Yeah, it’s confusing,,,,,,,some are thumbs down on Dacron, others are thumbs up,,,,,,,
  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 257 ✭✭
    Weak spring #31.  Firing pin pushed back on firing. 
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    243winxb said:
    Weak spring #31.  Firing pin pushed back on firing. 
    The above diagram is a later/different model than mine. My main/hammer spring is different and the interface with the hammer is totally different.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭
    When the rifle was made and the loading data generated likely the brass was balloon head having a greater volume than modern web head stuff.  That flat firing pin could be stretching the primer material much more than a proper hemispherical profile.  How flush is the case head to the end of the barrel?  
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Charlie, the case sets flush with the end of barrel. In the recess.
    Also, I have removed the hammer and firing pin. Measuring the ‘pin’ vs the breach hole, there is quite a difference between the breach hole and the ‘pin’ (ID vs OD). I will order some O1 tool steel and make a new firing pin. The ‘pin’ shows evidence of being reduced in diameter, i.e. bright, shiny with slight abrasive marks around the circumference.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited February 24
    Please read the correction below! The wording I used was poorly chosen.

    There are a couple of things to add to this discussion:

    - Dacron gets some bad reviews from the folks who didn't understand that it can cause trouble in cases with shoulders. It doesn't burn but melts and using the wrong amount of Dacron then forms a plug which runs the chamber pressure up and can potentially ring the chamber.
    The suggestion I make is to use a small square of TP folded into a square and pushed into the case with a pencil eraser or small dowel. Remember to add this weight to weight of the bullet.

    Doing some careful extrapolations, Trail Boss will more than double the volume which the Unique occupies from 40% to 85% which means you can skip the TP or the Dacron. In fact, you can use a 100% load of Trail Boss and still be below the pressure threshhold currently established. This load lays right on top of that skimpy Unique load but filling the entire case.
    This is very poor wording on my part. Please pay attention to this correction:
    I am NOT suggesting to physically load Trail Boss on top of the Unique load! This will create a very dangerous situation. DO NOT try this!
    I was trying to suggest that the numbers generated for the energy and velocities from either load were very similar.

    Best.


  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,351 ✭✭✭
    edited February 23
    O1 awesome, you would not believe how many firing pins I have made with a file and an egg beater drill using an aircraft bolt as stock. 

    The pic was just off the web when I googled stevens 44 1/2.  I haven't look at one since the 70's or so.  There was one that went threw a fire but didn't get real hot - the bore was bad, likely before the fire.  I wanted to take pulled 8mm Mauser barrel and make it a 32-40.  People used the 8mm barrels as tent stakes, they were so common.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    There are a couple of things to add to this discussion:

    - Dacron gets some bad reviews from the folks who didn't understand that it can cause trouble in cases with shoulders. It doesn't burn but melts and using the wrong amount of Dacron then forms a plug which runs the chamber pressure up and can potentially ring the chamber.
    The suggestion I make is to use a small square of TP folded into a square and pushed into the case with a pencil eraser or small dowel. Remember to add this weight to weight of the bullet.

    Doing some careful extrapolations, Trail Boss will more than double the volume which the Unique occupies from 40% to 85% which means you can skip the TP or the Dacron. In fact, you can use a 100% load of Trail Boss and still be below the pressure threshhold currently established. This load lays right on top of that skimpy Unique load but filling the entire case.

    Best.


    B. Am I reading the above correctly? You’re saying to use the TB in addition to the Unique ??
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    There are a couple of things to add to this discussion:

    - Dacron gets some bad reviews from the folks who didn't understand that it can cause trouble in cases with shoulders. It doesn't burn but melts and using the wrong amount of Dacron then forms a plug which runs the chamber pressure up and can potentially ring the chamber.
    The suggestion I make is to use a small square of TP folded into a square and pushed into the case with a pencil eraser or small dowel. Remember to add this weight to weight of the bullet.

    Doing some careful extrapolations, Trail Boss will more than double the volume which the Unique occupies from 40% to 85% which means you can skip the TP or the Dacron. In fact, you can use a 100% load of Trail Boss and still be below the pressure threshhold currently established. This load lays right on top of that skimpy Unique load but filling the entire case.

    Best.


    Bill, see my above question.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited February 24
    Please read the correction above!
    I am NOT suggesting to load Trail Boss powder over the load of Unique. This is a dangerous idea.


    Instead of a Dacron fluff over the powder, cut a small square of Toilet Paper, fold it to fit the case slightly oversize to hold the Trail Boss only powder back against the primer. Push the TP into the case with an eraser on a pencil or a small dowel. The weight of the TP must be included in the weight of the bullet since it become 'ejecta'.

    I've been doing this for a couple of dozen years when fireforming brass cases for wildcats.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Yes. Instead of a Dacron fluff over the powder, cut a small square of Toilet Paper, fold it to fit the case slightly oversize to hold the powder back against the primer. Push it into the case with an eraser on a pencil or a small dowel. The weight of the TP must be included in the weight of the bullet since it become 'ejecta'.

    I've been doing this for a couple of dozen years when fireforming brass cases for wildcats.
    Does this formula make sense??
    https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited February 24
    Please read the correction above. I am NOT suggesting to load Trail Boss on top of the Unique load. This is dangerous! The Trail Boss is put into the case BY ITSELF.

    Yes sir.
    It is just about what I was working with to establish a range from low to high. It's also straight forward without pitfalls because of the way the powder is designed.

    Best.


  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Yes sir.
    It is just about what I was working with to establish a range from low to high. It's also straight forward without pitfalls because of the way the powder is designed.

    Best.


    Thanks, I will purchase and try. 
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,876 ✭✭✭
    "This load lays right on top of that skimpy Unique load but filling the entire case."
    NNS, when I first read that, it sounded like loading TB on top of the Unique! :o
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Me too, Trap ,,,,,
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited February 24
    Trap55,
    B. Am I reading the above correctly? You’re saying to use the TB in addition to the Unique ??

    "... lays right on top of..."

    This IS NOT placing Trail Boss 'on top of' the unique load! This would create a dangerous situation!

    I was trying to suggest that both loads were similar in construction, energy and velocity with one load being almost exactly the same as the other. In essence, the numbers from the energy and velocity generated by both loads are nearly identical.

    I abbreviated Toilet Paper with TP and shouldn't have, at least for the first time trying to explain the method. Another thought while we're discussing this is that single layer Toilet Paper is best even if you have have to separate a sheet of double layer. All we're trying to accomplish is to hold the low volume load back against the primer in a column instead of letting is lay across the bottom of the case.

    The term we used to use to explain this condition was S.E.E. or Secondary Explosion Effect. The powder lays across the bottom of the case when the load is horizontal and the primer ignition flashes across the top of the entire load rather than igniting it to burn from the base of the load. The much larger surface area, when ignited in this manner, releases a significantly larger amount of energy instantly as opposed to the comparatively slower energy release when the powder is ignited from the base of the powder column.

    Best.


  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the explanation, B. ,,,,,,, I have never substituted smokeless for BP and was lost, it’s now making more sense.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    I apologize. It was just a poor choice of words and I didn't catch the disparity until a little while ago. I'm sorry for the confusion.

    The Trail Boss is used by itself in the case. Standard loading procedures. One powder only in the case.

    Best.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,876 ✭✭✭
    When I read it the second time, and knew who was posting it, "I" understood what you were saying, just afraid others might not. I know I have posted things in the past that made perfect sense to me, then re-reading it later made me wonder if anyone knew wth I was talking about!
    On the subject of TrailBoss, I've seen discussion on other forums about pressure concerns, pressure vs velocity, what IMR says, and what Hodgdon says. I have a lot of older guns/cartridges I've used it in, and none have ever shown a sign of having a problem. Even a compressed load in a 7.62x54 Mosin. Somewhere there may be an exception, but a double charge would be impossible, it's pretty much idiot proof. Most loads are subsonic, with little to no recoil (a plus after a shoulder surgery), and much easier to clean than black powder. If I had a complaint, the only one would be accuracy. That could be just me, it won't make a one hole group, but good enough for minute of beer can at 50-100yrds.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    Trap,,,,,," it's pretty much idiot proof."
    My kinda powder !!!! ;)
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,876 ✭✭✭
    Forge, I meant me, but you said it first! :)  Seriously though, I think you would have to do something "beyond idiot", to get excessive pressure using it. Like I mentioned, I "stuffed" a Mosin round, and never got a sticky extraction or any sign of a flatten primer.
    I just saw your range report this morning with the Unique load (not bad!), and sure would like to see one with the TB loads when you get some loaded up.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    TRAP55 said:
    Forge, I meant me, but you said it first! :)  Seriously though, I think you would have to do something "beyond idiot", to get excessive pressure using it. Like I mentioned, I "stuffed" a Mosin round, and never got a sticky extraction or any sign of a flatten primer.
    I just saw your range report this morning with the Unique load (not bad!), and sure would like to see one with the TB loads when you get some loaded up.
    Yeah, I need to move the front sight .015” to the left, make a new firing pin, different bullets are in the mail, nearest TB is 60 miles away, load a few,,,,,,,,and a partridge in a pear tree.   :D
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,101 ✭✭✭
    edited February 26
    O1 awesome, you would not believe how many firing pins I have made with a file and an egg beater drill using an aircraft bolt as stock. 

    The pic was just off the web when I googled stevens 44 1/2.  I haven't look at one since the 70's or so.  There was one that went threw a fire but didn't get real hot - the bore was bad, likely before the fire.  I wanted to take pulled 8mm Mauser barrel and make it a 32-40.  People used the 8mm barrels as tent stakes, they were so common.
    Charlie,,,,I sketched and dimensioned a new firing pin. I'm waiting on the O-1 steel and I'll turn a new 'pin'.
    And no, I'm neither a draftsman or engineer and just barely can sketch on the computer, but this will do for an 'ol country boy.  B)
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