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You're either a free citizen or you're not....

wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
The Founders were much wiser than most folks think.

I agree 100% with the notion they were realistic in their approach. They possessed a great deal of intellect and common sense as well, which is precisely why I believe when those men penned, "shall not be infringed', they meant, 'SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED'.

The Founders knew well that it was in the nature of some men to seek absolute power. FWIW, I also believe the Founders had absolutely no doubt that years into the future, those same folks that lusted for absolute authority would attempt to twist, distort and pervert the words they put to parchment.

I am no believer of fortune tellers and soothsayers, but it's almost as if the Founders were peering into a crystal ball when the Constitution was written, hence, they were very clear, deliberate and unambiguous; not simply for the sake of their generation, but for future generations as well.

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Crystal clear. There is no need to debate, discuss or try to interpret the meaning of those fourteen words. I believe that most anyone with even the slightest degree of intelligence understands the intent and meaning.

It is not so much an issue of 'understanding' or 'comprehension' as it is 'acceptance'.

That said......

'Picking and choosing' which free citizens should or should not have the RTKBA is a slippery slope and if an individual is deemed fit to re-enter society, he is, by definition, a free citizen.

We live in a society where 'felony' is pinned on far too many crimes. With a few votes and the stroke of a pen, even more crimes can be made felonious. What are you left with?

De facto firearms confiscation. As more and more folks, guilty of non-violent offenses, earn 'felon' status, the percentage of the populace that is armed decreases. Eventually, you have a very small number of folks who 'legally' have the RTKBA.

FWIW, I believe that has been the plan for quite some time.

Comments

  • buffalobobuffalobo Member Posts: 2,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:De facto firearms confiscation. As more and more folks, guilty of non-violent offenses, earn 'felon' status, the percentage of the populace that is armed decreases. Eventually, you have a very small number of folks who 'legally' have the RTKBA.

    FWIW, I believe that has been the plan for quite some time.

    I too believe this to be the case.

    I just don't understand how the interpretation(of RKBA) can be so misconstrued, even after 230 yrs. It is written in plain simple english and we have the writings of the founders outside the constitution to draw on for context and intent.
  • wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by buffalobo

    I just don't understand how the interpretation(of RKBA) can be so misconstrued, even after 230 yrs. It is written in plain simple english and we have the writings of the founders outside the constitution to draw on for context and intent.


    Kevin,

    It's not that it's misconstrued;

    It is simply not accepted. It is not accepted because with rights comes responsibilities and in this day and time, most folks avoid responsibility as though it were a colony of lepers.
  • quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1
    Twas no heethan crytal ball Shane, It was the clarity thats gods grace, it gives a man's mind natural reason and allows it to see true.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
    quote:Originally posted by buffalobo

    I just don't understand how the interpretation(of RKBA) can be so misconstrued, even after 230 yrs. It is written in plain simple english and we have the writings of the founders outside the constitution to draw on for context and intent.


    Kevin,

    It's not that it's misconstrued;

    It is simply not accepted. It is not accepted because with rights comes responsibilities and in this day and time, most folks avoid responsibility as though it were a colony of lepers.
    Shane, a very well put OP and this point is also spot on.

    There is no honest debate on the text and intent of Amendment II and that text and intent is understood, except by a handful of drooling idiots.

    As you say, the problem is that so many simply do not agree with that clear text and clear intent; therefore, the rationalization, misdirection, justification, obfuscation and the outright false arguments are trotted out to muddy the water as cover for the simple fact that some cannot stomach the concept of individual liberty, particularly related to the RKBA.

    We see this manifested relative to many other issues of individual liberties and of Constitutional restraints on government and other constitutionally enumerated god-given/Natural-rights.

    In my assessment, it really boils down to the opposing ethic-philosophy/ideology of 'Collectivism vs. Individualism'.

    A collectivist cannot grasp, or agree with the very concept of individual rights over the 'greater good' or the 'common sense' laws that they desire, to control people via the government.

    You can't reason with them, you can't rationally debate with them.

    Those who have the ethic/philosophy/ideology of collectivism are possessed with an alien thought-process and belief-system that is absolutely not compatible with those who view life, government and the world through the lens of individual liberty.

    It is the battleground of the ages and we individualists are badly outnumbered.

    What then to do, is the question in my eyes...

    **An attempt at defining the real battleground and shifting focus to that, rather than the normal right vs. left, republican vs. democrat or liberal vs conservative, is worthy.

    Yet far too many are hopelessly caught in those paradigms and will not look at the man behind the curtain. Hell, most won't even acknowledge that there IS a curtain, let alone someone/something behind it.

    **Principled voting, coupled with the above, is a worthy, yet minuscule effort.

    **These forums being used to attempt the above two methods are fine, as far as they go.

    **Local action and personal action/advocacy is a fine attempt, yet also minuscule in scope when taken in the greater scheme of things.

    **Preparedness for what is certain to come at some future point is prudent, yet does not achieve the awakening/shift that is required.

    **We individualists raising our children and attempting to pass on these principles to our kids and their associates is required and a noble effort, yet another minuscule effect when viewed as part of the larger picture.

    A picture where tens if not hundreds of millions of collectivist-minded are out-breeding and out educating us and that we (the USA) are allowing to flood the nation with tens of millions more collectivist-barbarians, further diluting any hope of a constitutional reawakening.

    What then is our approach?

    How do we restore the Republic?

    How do we reawaken the populous to 'true' constitutional knowledge and to the founding principles?

    How can we do this in the fact of globalist-collectivist government, in the face of controlled propaganda-mills and indoctrination-camps known as public schools, in light of the complicity of the Federal Courts in usurping the Constitution, in light of the loss of independence and loss of the separation of the three branches of government, the loss of State Sovereignty, the ruthless suppression of the rights of the individual?

    What is the method to gain back ground, seriously?
  • jev1969jev1969 Member Posts: 2,691
    edited November -1
    Ok. Here are my two cents worth (latin for my turn to stir the pot). If we are going to infer what the founding fathers meant and what they perhaps foresaw (in their crystal balls [;)]) lets look beyond what was said in one document. I believe it was Samuel Adams who said: "and that the said Constitution be never construed to infringe the just liberty of press.... or to prevent the people of the United States who are peacable citizens from keeping their own arms...."
    To me this means that the founding fathers "foresaw" the possibility that "non-peacable" citizens would be free and not incarcerated and that these individuals should not possess firearms.
    Now I do agree that if society feels that someone is so dangerous that we should restrict their RTKABA then WTH are they doing out of prison in the first place? We can argue idealistic and realistic scenarios but the fact of the matter is right now in this country we do not keep violent people locked up. That is why society passed laws to disarm those people. Do those laws work? Nope. They only infringe on those of us that are peacable.[V]
  • buffalobobuffalobo Member Posts: 2,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
    quote:Originally posted by buffalobo

    I just don't understand how the interpretation(of RKBA) can be so misconstrued, even after 230 yrs. It is written in plain simple english and we have the writings of the founders outside the constitution to draw on for context and intent.


    Kevin,

    It's not that it's misconstrued;

    It is simply not accepted. It is not accepted because with rights comes responsibilities and in this day and time, most folks avoid responsibility as though it were a colony of lepers.


    Well said, all too true, thanks for the reminder. I sometimes give too much benefit of doubt to those who just don't get it.
  • wsfiredudewsfiredude Member Posts: 7,769 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by lt496
    quote:Originally posted by wsfiredude
    quote:Originally posted by buffalobo

    I just don't understand how the interpretation(of RKBA) can be so misconstrued, even after 230 yrs. It is written in plain simple english and we have the writings of the founders outside the constitution to draw on for context and intent.


    Kevin,

    It's not that it's misconstrued;

    It is simply not accepted. It is not accepted because with rights comes responsibilities and in this day and time, most folks avoid responsibility as though it were a colony of lepers.


    What is the method to gain back ground, seriously?



    Brother Jeff,

    Excellent points, and a clear picture of things as they are today.

    IMO, some collectivists are beyond hope. They will never remove their blinders, no matter what occurs.

    On the other hand, I believe there are those who will eventually wake up once they come to the realization of the evil that is and has been lurking. When they see the truth; the truth being that 'for the common good' laws are actually sinister implements designed to separate the people from their liberty, there will be an awakening.

    For those of us who are individualists and see things as they are, it is best that we not get discouraged, no matter how bleak the situation appears. We keep doing what we're doing; preparing, educating, shining the light on the truth, etc. We owe that to those who lit the torch over 200 years ago and it is our job to ensure it never goes out.

    There is a man that gave a speech years ago and although I do not agree with everything this man did, he did speak some wise words in the speech. He stated,

    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to; this (America) is the last stand on earth."

    Even if liberty burns in the heart of just one person, we've got hope.
  • buffalobobuffalobo Member Posts: 2,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The hope lies in those who do not even realize they have come under the inluence of collectivism. They may be awakened, but as you say those who believe in the tenents of collectivism are lost. They will never take up the responsibility needed to be individualists or free.

    I went a few rounds with some of the collectivists over in politics on one of LT's threads. They don't want what goes along with individualism and freedom.
  • RockatanskyRockatansky Member Posts: 11,175
    edited November -1
    There isn't such thing as a free citizen. It's an ol' wives' tale. There are only shepherds and the herd.
  • cccoopercccooper Member Posts: 4,044 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    When we started passing laws "for the common good, or the public good" ie: the Firearms Act, The Gun Control Act, etc, we started down the slippery slope at a much faster pace than before. When society starts accepting restrictions or even stops questioning them, we are in a world of hurt.

    Incrementalism and gradualism have been the main tactics used by the progressives over the last 7-8 decades. Little bit here and there and before you know it, it is now "accepted". Generations have been mis-led and the INCORRECT information on many ideas implanted into their skulls of mush. Collectivists repeat their idology as a mantra. Say the same thing a few million times and people begin to repeat it.

    Guns kill. Cars Kill. Alcohol Kills. Marijuana Kills. No mention that A PERSON has to be involved. Left out that little tidbit of info. So we now have kids in schools that are taught to "INFORM" on their parents or relatives about loaded guns.

    Too many wackos firmly entrenched in DC. No logic or common sense. No real essence of American Statesman to be seen.

    When we pass that tipping point, and believe me, we are very close, it will be the death knell of America as we know (knew) it.

    [:(!][:(!]
  • wpagewpage Member Posts: 10,204 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Agreed now the Prez sayes we use too much salt and his wife wants to control what our children should consume...
    We are not talking sin tax here. Its control. What happened to freedom of choice?
    You are not a free man in this country anymore sadly.
  • buffalobobuffalobo Member Posts: 2,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cccooper
    When we started passing laws "for the common good, or the public good" ie: the Firearms Act, The Gun Control Act, etc, we started down the slippery slope at a much faster pace than before. When society starts accepting restrictions or even stops questioning them, we are in a world of hurt.

    Incrementalism and gradualism have been the main tactics used by the progressives over the last 7-8 decades. Little bit here and there and before you know it, it is now "accepted". Generations have been mis-led and the INCORRECT information on many ideas implanted into their skulls of mush. Collectivists repeat their idology as a mantra. Say the same thing a few million times and people begin to repeat it.

    Guns kill. Cars Kill. Alcohol Kills. Marijuana Kills. No mention that A PERSON has to be involved. Left out that little tidbit of info. So we now have kids in schools that are taught to "INFORM" on their parents or relatives about loaded guns.

    Too many wackos firmly entrenched in DC. No logic or common sense. No real essence of American Statesman to be seen.

    When we pass that tipping point, and believe me, we are very close, it will be the death knell of America as we know (knew) it.

    [:(!][:(!]




    You forgot.

    There will be blood.
    [:D]

    BTW, good post.
  • cccoopercccooper Member Posts: 4,044 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by buffalobo
    quote:Originally posted by cccooper
    When we started passing laws "for the common good, or the public good" ie: the Firearms Act, The Gun Control Act, etc, we started down the slippery slope at a much faster pace than before. When society starts accepting restrictions or even stops questioning them, we are in a world of hurt.

    Incrementalism and gradualism have been the main tactics used by the progressives over the last 7-8 decades. Little bit here and there and before you know it, it is now "accepted". Generations have been mis-led and the INCORRECT information on many ideas implanted into their skulls of mush. Collectivists repeat their idology as a mantra. Say the same thing a few million times and people begin to repeat it.

    Guns kill. Cars Kill. Alcohol Kills. Marijuana Kills. No mention that A PERSON has to be involved. Left out that little tidbit of info. So we now have kids in schools that are taught to "INFORM" on their parents or relatives about loaded guns.

    Too many wackos firmly entrenched in DC. No logic or common sense. No real essence of American Statesman to be seen.

    When we pass that tipping point, and believe me, we are very close, it will be the death knell of America as we know (knew) it.

    [:(!][:(!]




    You forgot.

    There will be blood.
    [:D]

    BTW, good post.


    Thanks, Buff. I need to keep saying it since it is coming down on us like a runaway freight train.[:(!]
  • buffalobobuffalobo Member Posts: 2,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I like it, have come to expect it in your posts.

    Also liked the movie of the same name, no relavence to this subject of coarse.
  • IdahoRedneckIdahoRedneck Member Posts: 2,699
    edited November -1
    quote:"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

    Crystal clear. There is no need to debate, discuss or try to interpret the meaning of those fourteen words. I believe that most anyone with even the slightest degree of intelligence understands the intent and meaning.



    10X on that one, in my book great post[:)][^]
  • wpagewpage Member Posts: 10,204 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There are legions that disagree on the 2nd amendment.
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