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Senate Rejects Efforts to Protect Gun Records
sovereignman
Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭
The Senate, by an overwhelming 85-10 vote, tabled an amendment by Senator Rand Paul which would have protected 4473's and other gun records from blanket searches by the ATF under the PATRIOT Act.
A mere 24 hours earlier, Democratic Leader Harry Reid went through parliamentary convolutions in order to prevent a vote on the Paul 4473 amendment, fearing that a vote on his language would have devastating implications for his Democrats running for reelection.
But Reid had some important allies in the Republican leadership. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and his second-in-command, retiring Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ), used their "Republican whip" apparatus to mischaracterize the Paul amendment and try to force Republicans to vote against it by spreading misinformation and lies.
link... Time to shut down the ATF?
http://gunowners.org/a05272011.htm
A mere 24 hours earlier, Democratic Leader Harry Reid went through parliamentary convolutions in order to prevent a vote on the Paul 4473 amendment, fearing that a vote on his language would have devastating implications for his Democrats running for reelection.
But Reid had some important allies in the Republican leadership. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and his second-in-command, retiring Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ), used their "Republican whip" apparatus to mischaracterize the Paul amendment and try to force Republicans to vote against it by spreading misinformation and lies.
link... Time to shut down the ATF?
http://gunowners.org/a05272011.htm
Comments
Typical. Left, right, liberal, conservative, republican, democrat... it doesn't matter anymore...they are all the same. Representative goverment, for the most part, is just a myth anymore. It's a catch phrase to the politicians because the only thing they represent is themselves and the special interests that back them. And the general public is just too stupid to see it for what it is.
I was just trying to show that the ATF is God and the FFl dealers are the "Licensed" and are keeping records on those Citizens that fail to understand that and FFl is an arm of government, knowingly or not,for the ATF and government.
The senate is controlled by fascists, they are working to put all gun owners under the task masters. Just look at the bills presented by liberals in the senate and congress.
And a certain sector of Americans are just morons when it comes to
true freedom. JMO.
Interesting that the NRA took no official stand on this matter.
the NRA is absent in many pro constitutional issues. They serve their selves and the people when it benefits them.
Take a look at this short video by campaign for liberty dot org.
You may have seen this already.
Ron Paul knows what is in store for us if we don't wake up.
Some others do as well, they are part of the plot.
Now, lets say someone in my area of the county shoots and kills a person with a 308 caliber rifle. I'm sure, that if law enforcement wanted to they could go to every ffl dealer in the area and check to see who has purchased a weapon with that caliber.
Now as far as the ATF or te feds, they could do the same. There is no privacy on the transaction record.
The federal use of a 4473 is possible, but I can't believe, that they would have a data base or enough people to manage all the gun transactions that take place in this country. A blanket check of all 4473's would be an enormous task. I wouls assume if they were interested in an individual person, it would be relatively easy.
My understanding of the form 4473, is that its kept with the ffl, The only info transferred to the ATF is at the time of purchase. The name of the purchaser and then a background check and then the ATF gives out a control number to the ffl for that transfer.
Now, lets say someone in my area of the county shoots and kills a person with a 308 caliber rifle. I'm sure, that if law enforcement wanted to they could go to every ffl dealer in the area and check to see who has purchased a weapon with that caliber.
Now as far as the ATF or te feds, they could do the same. There is no privacy on the transaction record.
The federal use of a 4473 is possible, but I can't believe, that they would have a data base or enough people to manage all the gun transactions that take place in this country. A blanket check of all 4473's would be an enormous task. I wouls assume if they were interested in an individual person, it would be relatively easy.
The government is not our friend and there is a database on all firearm purchases.How and when they use the information is up to them. And don't forget these alphabet soup entities are above the law, just look at fast and furious, even the congress can't get an honest answer. our government from the top to the bottom is out of control. The Tea Party members are just a sampling of the future to come. Many thousands of Americans are waking up to the despotic actions of runaway government.
Typical. Left, right, liberal, conservative, republican, democrat... it doesn't matter anymore...they are all the same. Representative goverment, for the most part, is just a myth anymore. It's a catch phrase to the politicians because the only thing they represent is themselves and the special interests that back them. And the general public is just too stupid to see it for what it is.
I agree and until the rest of Americans wake up to the fact that politically left and right are almost the same and to keep dancing the two step gets them nowhere but around and around the same old dance floor.The insiders feed Americans pablum and until they learn to eat meat we will continue to dance.
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
quote:there is a database on all firearm purchases
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
I'm not so sure about that. The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:there is a database on all firearm purchases
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
I'm not so sure about that. The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
Exactly right you are, trusting citizens duped to believe that congress will protect them, hell, look at what runs congress now.
We have a quagmire of alphabet soup departments that do not answer to congress. If you do bad (evil)you get a promotion and a raise.
Politics without Constitutional restrictions are inherently evil and it is the American people that will eventually become slaves or free.
Many elected to Congress laugh at the Constitution, they are treacherous letches and should be dealt with accordingly.
We give an inch Government takes a mile.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams
quote:Originally posted by wifetrained
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:there is a database on all firearm purchases
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
I'm not so sure about that. The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
Exactly right you are, trusting citizens duped to believe that congress will protect them, hell, look at what runs congress now.
We have a quagmire of alphabet soup departments that do not answer to congress. If you do bad (evil)you get a promotion and a raise.
Politics without Constitutional restrictions are inherently evil and it is the American people that will eventually become slaves or free.
Many elected to Congress laugh at the Constitution, they are treacherous letches and should be dealt with accordingly.
We give an inch Government takes a mile.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams
Then, fool, your bank account is enough of a database to convict you.
Get over yourself, and get a grip on reality.
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by wifetrained
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:there is a database on all firearm purchases
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
I'm not so sure about that. The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
Exactly right you are, trusting citizens duped to believe that congress will protect them, hell, look at what runs congress now.
We have a quagmire of alphabet soup departments that do not answer to congress. If you do bad (evil)you get a promotion and a raise.
Politics without Constitutional restrictions are inherently evil and it is the American people that will eventually become slaves or free.
Many elected to Congress laugh at the Constitution, they are treacherous letches and should be dealt with accordingly.
We give an inch Government takes a mile.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams
Then, fool, your bank account is enough of a database to convict you.
Get over yourself, and get a grip on reality.
your too funny. Government employee?
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by wifetrained
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:there is a database on all firearm purchases
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
I'm not so sure about that. The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
Exactly right you are, trusting citizens duped to believe that congress will protect them, hell, look at what runs congress now.
We have a quagmire of alphabet soup departments that do not answer to congress. If you do bad (evil)you get a promotion and a raise.
Politics without Constitutional restrictions are inherently evil and it is the American people that will eventually become slaves or free.
Many elected to Congress laugh at the Constitution, they are treacherous letches and should be dealt with accordingly.
We give an inch Government takes a mile.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." --Samuel Adams
Then, fool, your bank account is enough of a database to convict you.
Get over yourself, and get a grip on reality.
your too funny. Government employee?
Nope, just one who knows far more than you have ever considered.
It's NICS, not NCIC.
NCIC (National Crime Information Center) is a database of stolen property and missing persons.
NICS is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
When a dealer calls in a NICS check, only information on the BUYER is given. No information is given on the gun, except to state whether it is a handgun, long gun, or other. No one asks for make, model, and serial number. People who have the CHL aren't even called in at all. How is that registration?
Now, with the Multiple Handgun Purchase form, make, model and serial number are reported. This is simple to circumvent; just don't pick up more than one handgun at a time.
4473s are available for inspection by the BATFE. I have been inspected. I have thousands of 4473s. The inspector looked at about a half dozen recent ones, just to compare them with the bound book entries, and did not write anything down. How is that a database?
One should really try to be more informed before stating conjecture as fact.
quote:The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
It's NICS, not NCIC.
I meant NICS.
NCIC (National Crime Information Center) is a database of stolen property and missing persons.
NICS is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
When a dealer calls in a NICS check, only information on the BUYER is given. No information is given on the gun, except to state whether it is a handgun, long gun, or other. No one asks for make, model, and serial number. People who have the CHL aren't even called in at all. How is that registration?
I never said it was registration. I stated that the feds have been caught holding on to the inquiries on more than one occasion over the years. It has been reported in the past by the NRA and there has been congressional hearings into NICS abuses. I'm well aware what information is exchanged when a NICS check is being conducted.
Now, with the Multiple Handgun Purchase form, make, model and serial number are reported. This is simple to circumvent; just don't pick up more than one handgun at a time.
4473s are available for inspection by the BATFE. I have been inspected. I have thousands of 4473s. The inspector looked at about a half dozen recent ones, just to compare them with the bound book entries, and did not write anything down. How is that a database?
I didn't state it was a database, I said that one could consider it something akin to one. After all the records have to be maintained subject to inspection by the BATFE. One may get off easy, such as the inspection you had, or they could conduct a much more thorough inspection. And what really happens to all the 4473's forwarded to the BATFE after a shop or individual dealer shuts down? All too often what the feds state and what they do are two different things. They may state that they are in compliance with the law but how are we too know for sure?
One should really try to be more informed before stating conjecture as fact.
I do try to be informed, I do miss the mark at times but I do try.
quote:The feds have already been caught holding onto pre-purchase NCIC inquiries more than once and that info is suppose to be destroyed. Also all form 4473's are accessible for inspection by the ATF and one could consider that something of a database.
It's NICS, not NCIC.
NCIC (National Crime Information Center) is a database of stolen property and missing persons.
NICS is the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.
When a dealer calls in a NICS check, only information on the BUYER is given. No information is given on the gun, except to state whether it is a handgun, long gun, or other. No one asks for make, model, and serial number. People who have the CHL aren't even called in at all. How is that registration?
Now, with the Multiple Handgun Purchase form, make, model and serial number are reported. This is simple to circumvent; just don't pick up more than one handgun at a time.
4473s are available for inspection by the BATFE. I have been inspected. I have thousands of 4473s. The inspector looked at about a half dozen recent ones, just to compare them with the bound book entries, and did not write anything down. How is that a database?
One should really try to be more informed before stating conjecture as fact.
The Senate, by an overwhelming 85-10 vote, tabled an amendment by Senator Rand Paul which would have protected 4473's and other gun records from blanket searches by the ATF under the PATRIOT Act. It's NICS , its government control.
it is stuff like this that I was and am against the Patriot Act. It intent may have been for good, (find those who would attack this country), but the potential to use it against this countries citizens was so great. The risk wasn't worth it my book. But now here it is. And we are getting closer and closer to the real risk and possibly intent of the Patriot Act.
Sovereignman,,, This is what we were talking about in that other thread. It so obviously unconstitutional but what will done ? Nothing. The courts put in that time line to destroy the records but as I said, who keeps up with that ?? And a lot of damage can be done before that time frame expires. The way they split hairs and twist words and meanings, it wouldn't surprise me if they saw as destroying only the original but copies were all together different. This is a dangerous bunch.
it is stuff like this that I was and am against the Patriot Act. It intent may have been for good, (find those who would attack this country), but the potential to use it against this countries citizens was so great. The risk wasn't worth it my book. But now here it is. And we are getting closer and closer to the real risk and possibly intent of the Patriot Act.
I Agree!
The battlefields are littered with the bodies of good men and women who died protecting our constitutional freedoms. Isn't it time we put a stop to the dictators in the federal government that are suspending every Americans rights? Time to vote the socialists out. Time to ask the hard questions publicly of people running for office at every level. It may be to late, time will tell.
quote:Originally posted by 45long
Sovereignman,,, This is what we were talking about in that other thread. It so obviously unconstitutional but what will done ? Nothing. The courts put in that time line to destroy the records but as I said, who keeps up with that ?? And a lot of damage can be done before that time frame expires. The way they split hairs and twist words and meanings, it wouldn't surprise me if they saw as destroying only the original but copies were all together different. This is a dangerous bunch.
it is stuff like this that I was and am against the Patriot Act. It intent may have been for good, (find those who would attack this country), but the potential to use it against this countries citizens was so great. The risk wasn't worth it my book. But now here it is. And we are getting closer and closer to the real risk and possibly intent of the Patriot Act.
I Agree!
The battlefields are littered with the bodies of good men and women who died protecting our constitutional freedoms. Isn't it time we put a stop to the dictators in the federal government that are suspending every Americans rights? Time to vote the socialists out. Time to ask the hard questions publicly of people running for office at every level. It may be to late, time will tell.
I believe it's already too late. You have 10's of millions of people in this country who are financially dependent on the goverment for one reason or another, almost 50 million on food stamps alone, and they will not bite the hands that feeds them. The public, in general, may complain and grumble about things but they will continue to perpetuate the status quo.
quote:there is a database on all firearm purchases
That statement is simply untrue.
It makes the rest of what you post very suspect.
prove there is no database nunn.
I can't help but to believe that, that info is stored and accessible to most any one who would have the correct password.
Just my 2 cents.....................
Hate to add fuel to this. But, in the great state of Tennessee, when a citizen purchases a firearm, the information that is forwarded to the states telephone number for approval to sell includes the name of purchaser, Her/His S.S #, address and drivers licenses number. The model and serial number of firearm is also mandatory.
I can't help but to believe that, that info is stored and accessible to most any one who would have the correct password.
Just my 2 cents.....................
Thanks for the information. It's not what we know about federal records, but what we do not know that will harm freedom.
PURPOSE: The purpose for maintaining the NCIC system is to provide a computerized database for ready access by a criminal justice agency making an inquiry and for prompt disclosure of information in the system from other criminal justice agencies about crimes and criminals. This information assists authorized agencies in criminal justice and related law enforcement objectives, such as apprehending fugitives, locating missing persons, locating and returning stolen property, as well as in the protection of the law enforcement officers encountering the individuals described in the system.
Sovereignman,,, This is what we were talking about in that other thread. It so obviously unconstitutional but what will done ? Nothing. The courts put in that time line to destroy the records but as I said, who keeps up with that ?? And a lot of damage can be done before that time frame expires. The way they split hairs and twist words and meanings, it wouldn't surprise me if they saw as destroying only the original but copies were all together different. This is a dangerous bunch.
it is stuff like this that I was and am against the Patriot Act. It intent may have been for good, (find those who would attack this country), but the potential to use it against this countries citizens was so great. The risk wasn't worth it my book. But now here it is. And we are getting closer and closer to the real risk and possibly intent of the Patriot Act.
Thinking a bit on this, it seems that 911 was used to dispel our rights just a bit more. It seems as if someone is slowly trying to remove Americans Constitutional rights bit by bit and when they have them removed to the point citizens no longer care is this when international laws will become the law of nations?
I pray not!
quote:Originally posted by sovereignman
quote:Originally posted by wifetrained
Typical. Left, right, liberal, conservative, republican, democrat... it doesn't matter anymore...they are all the same. Representative goverment, for the most part, is just a myth anymore. It's a catch phrase to the politicians because the only thing they represent is themselves and the special interests that back them. And the general public is just too stupid to see it for what it is.
I was just trying to show that the ATF is God and the FFl dealers are the "Licensed" and are keeping records on those Citizens that fail to understand that and FFl is an arm of government, knowingly or not,for the ATF and government.
The senate is controlled by fascists, they are working to put all gun owners under the task masters. Just look at the bills presented by liberals in the senate and congress.
And a certain sector of Americans are just morons when it comes to
true freedom. JMO.
And who God is.
Freedoms are slowly being washed away for a false form of security. Many Americans look to Government as master and god. Other Americans see from a perspective of lemmings and herd mentality.
Then we are given little choice in the arena of politicians, again these politicians will be the lesser of evils presented to Americans, one will become a savior for the common man and woman.
And the lemmings keep moving. JMO
We have fallen and we can't get up.