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United we stand

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  • wifetrainedwifetrained Member Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
    quote:Originally posted by dustinfox
    quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
    quote:Originally posted by dustinfox
    Reading through this thread brings to mind a recent post I made regarding the NRA (which as yet has not been responded to). Is there a pro-2nd amendment organization we should be supporting in Washington?


    While no one is able to tell you what you should do, or what organizations you personally should support, there are a few that respect the 2nd Amendment much better, IMO, than does the NRA:

    Gun Owners of America is a somewhat generic organization that does good work in pursuing the education of the populace regarding the actual meaning of the 2nd Amendment. They do stray into other areas on occasion, but for the most part their message is on point and is always less compromised than that of the NRA:

    http://gunowners.org/

    The 2nd Amendment Foundation is very active (and effective) in challenging and overturning laws across the country through the courts.

    http://www.saf.org/

    I can only encourage you to look at and research both organizations, and decide for yourself which, if any, works towards goals with which you agree.


    Thanks Don. The second amendment is pretty clear and concise and any legislation that infringes is unconstitutional.


    Sadly, dustinfox, the second part of your statement is no longer correct. The method SCOTUS chose to incorporate the second, at the urging of the NRA and against the method advocated for by the GOA through Gura makes Constitutional Licensing, Registration and Regulation. Heller, and more significantly McDonald, was a huge compromise to big government and legislated access as compared to an individual right.

    It is this nuance of these decisions that escapes many, and clarifies to the open-minded the difference between what is popularly called 'Gun Rights' as compared to that pure individual right we should all hold dear.

    The key words in this post are 'pure' and 'should all hold dear'!
    In the real world 'pure' (perfect) dose not and never will exist!
    I wish it did, but sadly it does not and those who fail to realize this are worthless, as they will never achieve their 'goal of perfection'![:(]



    Well then, by your definition, all those who are willing to compromise their rights as stated under the Constitution must be equally worthless as well. There is no such thing as "reasonable" gun control...just gun control. There is no link between gun control and a reduction in crime rates. The media may try to make that claim but the FBI and DOJ (regardless of who held the white house)have never found any linkage, just the opposite actually. Want to talk about crime and punishment, fine, want to talk about stopping the broken revolving door justice system, no problem. More infringment on our constitutional rights, NO! As tragic as Sandy hook was, it is quite the rarity.

    There is a link posted in another thread on this forum that shows that from Columbine to the present there has been around 210 people killed in mass shootings, less than 20 a year. While tragic it is hardly reason to compromise on a constitutional right. The anti's are not to be trusted and compromise should never enter into the equation because with them it's not an exception but an expectation. And considering the NRA's complicity in getting gun control enacted into law for decades the anti gunners are assured of continued compromise in any future discussions. It has to stop!
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    Except you are forgetting to face a fact which is going to make the difference in what you and I are saying.
    "every time there is a conflict between ideology and reality, by definition reality wins"!!![;)]
    Just simple common sense to someone who has not lost touch with reality.
    I wish you luck and pray you get as close as you can in your endeavour to achieve 'perfection' in this 'imperfect' world!!![|)]
    I will be cheering you on, but in the mean time I will continue to work at righting the wrongs we have been allowing to creep up on us for about 100 years now.[:(]
    You are correct in what you said about the Sandy Hook shooting. I have been trying to get this across to EVERYONE I can. The probability of a child, K thru 12, being killed or injured by a 'bullet' at school is so astronomically low it is, for all intents, non existent. But the progressives are using this 'emotion' to try and disarm us even more then they have so far and scary thing is it will probably work!!![V]
    This is exactly why we need to stop this silly infighting, which is playing right into the progressives hand, and realize we are all supporting the same goal just in different way and to different degrees!
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    Except you are forgetting to face a fact which is going to make the difference in what you and I are saying.
    "every time there is a conflict between ideology and reality, by definition reality wins"!!![;)]
    Just simple common sense to someone who has not lost touch with reality.
    I wish you luck and pray you get as close as you can in your endeavour to achieve 'perfection' in this 'imperfect' world!!![|)]
    I will be cheering you on, but in the mean time I will continue to work at righting the wrongs we have been allowing to creep up on us for about 100 years now.[:(]
    You are correct in what you said about the Sandy Hook shooting. I have been trying to get this across to EVERYONE I can. The probability of a child, K thru 12, being killed or injured by a 'bullet' at school is so astronomically low it is, for all intents, non existent. But the progressives are using this 'emotion' to try and disarm us even more then they have so far and scary thing is it will probably work!!![V]
    This is exactly why we need to stop this silly infighting, which is playing right into the progressives hand, and realize we are all supporting the same goal just in different way and to different degrees!


    Years ago when involved in a legal suit my attorney told me if I was willing to agree to less than I wanted I would get less than I wanted. That's reality. Applying this simple reality has never failed me. I never agree to less than I want.

    Shall not be infringed is my standard, I will accept no less. I find it sad that you and millions of other Americans are willing to lower the standards of liberty. You are willing to accept less than true liberty, that's your reality.
  • CaptainCrossmanCaptainCrossman Member Posts: 1,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by jaegermister
    United we stand divided we fall, needs no explaination. I have no AR , no M1 , they just don't fit my need, but I understand them as a firearm. It is not about what YOU own but about what is in store in the future if one group begins to impose their will over you.



    you said it all there, good show, hit the nail. The problem we have now, is divisions within the ranks of gun owners- the internet message boards- once considered a great tool for promoting gun rights, and trading parts, info, etc.- have become a way to SUPPRESS gun rights, and muddy the issues. Now we have gun forums, who are mining our private contact information, and giving it away- at the expense of our privacy. If that's what it's come down to, we're through- if the online message boards all fall in line, and become co-opted.

    there should be no anti-gun posts, or anti-gun voters, on a gun collector site, period. What are they doing that for ? There should be no "nays".

    very few gun collector sites allow pro-gun posts dealing with gun legislation, and congressional votes, etc. It's like they believe if they stay quiet, they'll be left alone, and "oh no, that will never happen" mentality will prevail.

    I also think many message boards and gun owners believe, if they "fall in line" now, they'll get to keep their guns, and their websites.

    think again. I doubt there will even be an internet access for gun collectors at all, or a website at all. Let me explain why:

    There is no Gunbroker, or any other online auction house, in Russia or China or Japan, or Britain.

    I rest my case.

    history has proven, it can and will happen, and did happen in Germany, Japan, China, Asia, USSR, etc. where they cannot own firearms of any type. Not even a single shot flintlock blackpowder pistol.

    so yes, it "can happen".

    it's already starting, who ever thought the topic of gun legislation, and the NRA, would be suppressed, on a gun collector site ?

    insanity. Figure that one out.
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,211 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    Except you are forgetting to face a fact which is going to make the difference in what you and I are saying.
    "every time there is a conflict between ideology and reality, by definition reality wins"!!![;)]
    Just simple common sense to someone who has not lost touch with reality.
    I wish you luck and pray you get as close as you can in your endeavour to achieve 'perfection' in this 'imperfect' world!!![|)]
    I will be cheering you on, but in the mean time I will continue to work at righting the wrongs we have been allowing to creep up on us for about 100 years now.[:(]
    You are correct in what you said about the Sandy Hook shooting. I have been trying to get this across to EVERYONE I can. The probability of a child, K thru 12, being killed or injured by a 'bullet' at school is so astronomically low it is, for all intents, non existent. But the progressives are using this 'emotion' to try and disarm us even more then they have so far and scary thing is it will probably work!!![V]
    This is exactly why we need to stop this silly infighting, which is playing right into the progressives hand, and realize we are all supporting the same goal just in different way and to different degrees!


    Years ago when involved in a legal suit my attorney told me if I was willing to agree to less than I wanted I would get less than I wanted. That's reality. Applying this simple reality has never failed me. I never agree to less than I want.

    Shall not be infringed is my standard, I will accept no less. I find it sad that you and millions of other Americans are willing to lower the standards of liberty. You are willing to accept less than true liberty, that's your reality.




    A great point, SCOUT5.

    Yielding the field before the battle starts rarely results in victory.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    Except you are forgetting to face a fact which is going to make the difference in what you and I are saying.
    "every time there is a conflict between ideology and reality, by definition reality wins"!!![;)]
    Just simple common sense to someone who has not lost touch with reality.
    I wish you luck and pray you get as close as you can in your endeavour to achieve 'perfection' in this 'imperfect' world!!![|)]
    I will be cheering you on, but in the mean time I will continue to work at righting the wrongs we have been allowing to creep up on us for about 100 years now.[:(]
    You are correct in what you said about the Sandy Hook shooting. I have been trying to get this across to EVERYONE I can. The probability of a child, K thru 12, being killed or injured by a 'bullet' at school is so astronomically low it is, for all intents, non existent. But the progressives are using this 'emotion' to try and disarm us even more then they have so far and scary thing is it will probably work!!![V]
    This is exactly why we need to stop this silly infighting, which is playing right into the progressives hand, and realize we are all supporting the same goal just in different way and to different degrees!


    Years ago when involved in a legal suit my attorney told me if I was willing to agree to less than I wanted I would get less than I wanted. That's reality. Applying this simple reality has never failed me. I never agree to less than I want.

    Shall not be infringed is my standard, I will accept no less. I find it sad that you and millions of other Americans are willing to lower the standards of liberty. You are willing to accept less than true liberty, that's your reality.


    Nice try, but that 'dog don't hunt' as they say. Your try to redefine reality is silly. You will settle nothing short of 'perfect', which does not exist in the real world, so you will NEVER succeed. Sorry be the bearer of bad new![V]
  • RTKBARTKBA Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    quote:
    Nice try, but that 'dog don't hunt' as they say. Your try to redefine reality is silly. You will settle nothing short of 'perfect', which does not exist in the real world, so you will NEVER succeed. Sorry be the bearer of bad new![V]

    Alright Jim, Take me into your reality. You say compromise is the only answer so how much do we compromise? Right now it seems they want to ban semi-autos and high capacity mags, would that be an acceptable compromise?
  • COBmmcmssCOBmmcmss Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For many years, several groups have tried to limit guns in society. One such famous limitation confrontation was called the gunfight at the OK Corral.

    Limitations and infringements are not reality, they are a person's opinion of definition. The reality will become whatever the courts define when it comes before them.

    The liberals want to define reality as their opinion. Those of us who believe the 2nd Amendment means what WE believe it to mean need to take it to the courts to get it defined as such.

    Until that day happens, we will continue to be threatened by those opposed or fearing guns in our hands.

    I hate that a permit is required to carry a gun. Each state seems to define the 2nd Amendment as THEY view it. As much as I am a "States Rights" kind of guy, since the 2nd Amendment is a Federal right, why haven't we (any of us) taken it up with the Supreme Court to get all states to recognize our Rights equally (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc.)? The answer is it costs mucho bucks. It takes usually 5 years to get to SCOTUS and even then those "learned ones" can simply deny the case.

    If we want to be united, THAT my friends would be one banner we could all gather under. Treat our Federal Rights, across all state lines, equally and without infringement.

    In the eyes of the law, we are not considered "adults" and bestowed with Individual Rights (absent parental rights) until the age 18 or emancipation. If that is good enough for voting, then it should be good enough for ALL other Rights as well IMHO.

    Let the discussion reign.

    COB
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by RTKBA
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    quote:
    Nice try, but that 'dog don't hunt' as they say. Your try to redefine reality is silly. You will settle nothing short of 'perfect', which does not exist in the real world, so you will NEVER succeed. Sorry be the bearer of bad new![V]

    Alright Jim, Take me into your reality. You say compromise is the only answer so how much do we compromise? Right now it seems they want to ban semi-autos and high capacity mags, would that be an acceptable compromise?
    You call it compromise and you are correct and it is a bad thing for us. Well we have compromised WAY to much and we now have an up hill battle!!! To simply say you will not except any change except the ultimate/perfect situation and to be little those who realize we will never achieve this, but are fighting to get the unconstitutional law on the books changed or repealed is very counter productive. I agree 100% that we can 'compromise' NO MORE!!! If they do succeed in adding more restrictions to the already unacceptable situation we MUST ALL unite and say NO to any attempt to apply any more restrictions to the exiting 'laws' and we have to fight like hell to get as many of the laws in the book changed and we MUST educate AS MANY AS WE CAN about how ridicules the current laws are.
    If all we do is try and tell everyone how screwed up they are because they don't agree that anyone with the money can go buy a MA DUSE and then bad mouth ANY organization who does not go along with this pure/perfect/ideal belief we are wasting our time. That is the reality of which I speak!!! I wish there was a possibility to make things as they were in 1780, but I will be happy if we can change the Federal Laws back to pre 1968, and work on the city, county, and state laws which are in direct violation of the 2nd Amendment. But we can't hope to accomplish a damm think if all we do is fight among ourselves!! This infighting is just what the progressives are counting on!!![:(]
  • SCOUT5SCOUT5 Member Posts: 16,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    Except you are forgetting to face a fact which is going to make the difference in what you and I are saying.
    "every time there is a conflict between ideology and reality, by definition reality wins"!!![;)]
    Just simple common sense to someone who has not lost touch with reality.
    I wish you luck and pray you get as close as you can in your endeavour to achieve 'perfection' in this 'imperfect' world!!![|)]
    I will be cheering you on, but in the mean time I will continue to work at righting the wrongs we have been allowing to creep up on us for about 100 years now.[:(]
    You are correct in what you said about the Sandy Hook shooting. I have been trying to get this across to EVERYONE I can. The probability of a child, K thru 12, being killed or injured by a 'bullet' at school is so astronomically low it is, for all intents, non existent. But the progressives are using this 'emotion' to try and disarm us even more then they have so far and scary thing is it will probably work!!![V]
    This is exactly why we need to stop this silly infighting, which is playing right into the progressives hand, and realize we are all supporting the same goal just in different way and to different degrees!


    Years ago when involved in a legal suit my attorney told me if I was willing to agree to less than I wanted I would get less than I wanted. That's reality. Applying this simple reality has never failed me. I never agree to less than I want.

    Shall not be infringed is my standard, I will accept no less. I find it sad that you and millions of other Americans are willing to lower the standards of liberty. You are willing to accept less than true liberty, that's your reality.


    Nice try, but that 'dog don't hunt' as they say. Your try to redefine reality is silly. You will settle nothing short of 'perfect', which does not exist in the real world, so you will NEVER succeed. Sorry be the bearer of bad new![V]


    Save the dog quotes they're useless. Since you are willing to accept infringements what makes your level of acceptable infringements right and someone Else's wrong? You have accepted a shifting line and once accepted you will have no control over where to or how often it shifts. You lose this battle before you even gear up for the fight.

    I know shall not be infringed has been breached many decades ago. However my line remains the same I will cede nothing, yours will forever be fluid, therefore you have no idea what you are willing to cede.
  • dustinfoxdustinfox Member Posts: 393 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It doesn't matter if you want to compromise or if you want to stand firm. What matters is what the people in Washington will do. All this arguing amongst the choir will get us no where. We need a clear plan of action. Should we forget about the gun lobby groups and just call our reps? It would be nice if it were that easy. Personally, I think we also need someone with "deep pockets" on the front line in Washington to represent us. So ok, some of us don't feel that the NRA has worked hard enough for us in the past. So who will take their place? Does anyone believe that we as individuals can make enough of a difference so that no new restrictions will be placed on our rights? Washington responds to money. Frankly, like them or not, the NRA is the only organization with enough clout to make a difference. And every time I hear rhetoric from lefties who want to make them a terrorist organization, I gain a bit more confidence in them.
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    Why do all you babblers keep saying that I am willing to except infringements??? This is your words not mine. I am the one who has said we have compromised way to much and it must stop and we must work to win back what we have lost. I am the one who went to bat against the progressive in CO and it almost cost me my job and pension, but I prevailed. I would bet that most, if not all of you, big mouths do nothing but get on the net and cause trouble, but you don't do a damm thing to help fight the progressives!!![:(!] You are the ones who are willing to except the compromises and infringements because you are the irrational,close minded, unrealistic ones who have given up the fight to get things changed because you will not except anything but 'perfect' and you now focus all your energy on belittling, and bad mouthing those of us who have not given up!!!
    Get a life!!! You are wasting ALL of our time and helping the anti-RTKABA's crowed and you know it. I think you just want to cause as much friction among/between gun owners as you can. I would go so far as to bet many of you voted for Barry just so you could keep complaining!!!![V]
    United we stand, divided we fall.[:(!]
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    Why do all you babblers keep saying that I am willing to except infringements??? This is your words not mine. I am the one who has said we have compromised way to much and it must stop and we must work to win back what we have lost. I am the one who went to bat against the progressive in CO and it almost cost me my job and pension, but I prevailed. I would bet that most, if not all of you, big mouths do nothing but get on the net and cause trouble, but you don't do a damm thing to help fight the progressives!!![:(!] You are the ones who are willing to except the compromises and infringements because you are the irrational,close minded, unrealistic ones who have given up the fight to get things changed because you will not except anything but 'perfect' and you now focus all your energy on belittling, and bad mouthing those of us who have not given up!!!
    Get a life!!! You are wasting ALL of our time and helping the anti-RTKABA's crowed and you know it. I think you just want to cause as much friction among/between gun owners as you can. I would go so far as to bet many of you voted for Barry just so you could keep complaining!!!![V]
    United we stand, divided we fall.[:(!]





    [:D]
  • RTKBARTKBA Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    quote:Originally posted by RTKBA
    quote:Originally posted by Jim Rau
    quote:
    Nice try, but that 'dog don't hunt' as they say. Your try to redefine reality is silly. You will settle nothing short of 'perfect', which does not exist in the real world, so you will NEVER succeed. Sorry be the bearer of bad new![V]

    Alright Jim, Take me into your reality. You say compromise is the only answer so how much do we compromise? Right now it seems they want to ban semi-autos and high capacity mags, would that be an acceptable compromise?
    You call it compromise and you are correct and it is a bad thing for us. Well we have compromised WAY to much and we now have an up hill battle!!! To simply say you will not except any change except the ultimate/perfect situation and to be little those who realize we will never achieve this, but are fighting to get the unconstitutional law on the books changed or repealed is very counter productive. I agree 100% that we can 'compromise' NO MORE!!! If they do succeed in adding more restrictions to the already unacceptable situation we MUST ALL unite and say NO to any attempt to apply any more restrictions to the exiting 'laws' and we have to fight like hell to get as many of the laws in the book changed and we MUST educate AS MANY AS WE CAN about how ridicules the current laws are.
    If all we do is try and tell everyone how screwed up they are because they don't agree that anyone with the money can go buy a MA DUSE and then bad mouth ANY organization who does not go along with this pure/perfect/ideal belief we are wasting our time. That is the reality of which I speak!!! I wish there was a possibility to make things as they were in 1780, but I will be happy if we can change the Federal Laws back to pre 1968, and work on the city, county, and state laws which are in direct violation of the 2nd Amendment. But we can't hope to accomplish a damm think if all we do is fight among ourselves!! This infighting is just what the progressives are counting on!!![:(]

    It's nice to see we don't differ to much on the issue Jim.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 64,364 ******
    edited November -1
    Riddle me this Jim... what are you doing to restore our 2A rights? As I see it, you're just further compromising them away one small piece at a time.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    Riddle me this Jim... what are you doing to restore our 2A rights? As I see it, you're just further compromising them away one small piece at a time.

    I guess you are not paying attention. I said NO MORE compromising!!![:(!] It stops here and we MUST beginning to win back what we have lost!![:(!]
    What do I do you ask, well for one I get on as many of the radio talk shows I can, both local and national, and try to argue OUR cause. I also am very out spoken in ALL the venues I have influence in about this issue, both public and private. I e-mail my elected officials and let them know where I and others stand on this issue.
    I have, in the past, testified at senate hearing at the state level to change existing 'anti-gun' laws for the better.
    I am also a member of every organization who, in any way, champions our cause and I let them know we MUST stop this compromising NOW! As I said MANY times 'perfect' will not happen in the 'real' world no matter how many times you 'close your eyes, cross your fingers, and wish it so'!!![V] BUT the closer we get to this 'perfect' you talk about the happier I will be.[;)]
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