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2-23-04 Please Mail 2 Me After Reading & Signing

tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
THE LESSOR OF TWO EVILS

Two groups for two long have been operating in plain sight while "owning" and controlling America. Unless patriotic Americans force one simple voting law change, the Democrats and Republicans will continue to rule for another hundred years. This exclusive and lengthy two party reign has often caused unnecessary suffering and loss for the America people. Plus it has caused many voters to feel as if they were being asked to vote for the lessor of two evils when they enter the voting booth; it has even caused millions of voters to just not vote at all.

The problem that needs correcting is that voters are afraid to spend their one precious vote on anyone other than a Democrat or a Republican. In the rare instances of an alternative candidate running for office, that candidate is widely expected to lose. This becomes a self-fulfilling expectation because most voters will not "waste" their vote on an expected loss. Therefore, they paradoxically play it "safe" and give their vote to what may be their second choice; the Democratic or Republican candidate. Under these circumstances it is virtually impossible for a political competitor to gain entrance to this exclusive political club owned by the Democrats and Republicans. Most Americans expect numerous and varied choices in television, radio and cable stations, religions, telephone, transportation, automotive, stores and merchants, etc. The American voter also needs and deserves more political choices.

A reasonable change in the voting laws would finally give citizens true freedom of political choice. Change to allow each voter to vote for as many candidates for any particular office as they choose. An example would be three candidates running for a presidential or congressional office. A voters first choice might actually be the 3rd (the alternative) party candidate. But as explained earlier, the voter is afraid to waste their one vote on a likely loss. So the voter plays it safe and reluctantly shifts his support away from his true choice and instead gives his one vote to his second choice. If the simple voting law change was made and that voter could vote for more than one candidate for a particular office, then the voter could have voted for his/her first and second choice. The current practice of the candidate winning the most votes/electoral votes winning the election would of course remain unchanged.

Until this change is made, the Democrats and Republicans will continue to lockout all challengers. This voting change would be good for America. Because for over one hundred years the Democrats and Republicans have smugly taken turns controlling America. Controlling without having to reform their behavior in response to any political pressure except the predictable pressure from each other. This two party control has harmed America. We have over taxation, excessive and wasteful spending, staggering government debts being passed onto our children, partial truths and outright lies dispensed to the trusting citizens, frequent government skirting of our constitution and bill of rights, appointment of judges, executives and managers who often display more loyalty to their party instead of to the constitution or even to fairness and common sense. Both parties robbing the Social Security "Trust Fund", and even giving part of America to people who should not even be here. But regardless of how badly a political party behaves in office, they know that their turn in power will soon come around again.

The average American can only be heard by the power elite if those Americans join together and speak as one. If you agree with this voting change idea, please join your voice with others who share our vision. Please sign and return this letter to me. When I have received enough signed letters I will use them to try and influence different groups and organizations, especially the approximately 40 alternative political parties in America. Those political parties could benefit greatly if they would divert some of their time, money and energy to cause this voting change which would "level the playing field" for them. This leveling would, for the first time, give them an actual chance to provide some much needed competition to the present two party system. Along with signing and returning this letter, I also urge you to use your own creative ideas on how you may promote this needed change.

Signed Sincerely,




printed name

address

e-mail address


Dear Reader, IMPORTANT: to print, click on the "printer friendly" choice at the top right of the topic screen. Also instruct your printer to print only page 1 through 2, because there are approximately 26 pages here that you don't want to use up ink printing. Hopefully, this letter will print as a two full page letter. If not, then please detach at the dotted line and if you agree with the thoughts expressed in this letter, sign and mail to me. Only provide as much information as you feel comfortable giving. But remember that the more completed the letter is, the more effective it will be. I will not encourage doubt by asking for any monetary help with this project. But I am just an average person and there will be noticeable expenses with this project (postage, cost of copies, envelopes, office expense, etc.). So if you can spare them, please include a few unused postage stamps with your letter to at least help with the postage. So if you are in agreement with the letter, of if you have suggestions or questions, mail to : TAKE BACK AMERICA, 2111 E. Santa Fe, Suite 147, Olathe, KS 66062-1606. And feel free to copy this letter and paste it on other boards, send it to friends, or anywhere else you think we might gain support for such an important issue. Together we CAN make a difference. And thank you.
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Comments

  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    OK boys, here it is. Who knows what will happen now! You might want to check out an interesting story on AOL about this very subject!

    http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/elections/article.adp?id=20040223085009990002
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    pickenup: In view of the extreme importance of taking at least one concrete step to try and save our country, there is no room for vanity. With that said, I have to say I like most of your letter better than I like most of my letter. After we allow time for us to get a few more suggestions I will make some changes. Thanks for the time and effort you spent on composing and typing your sample letter.(final letter posted 2-23-04)

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,350 ******
    edited November -1
    Even if all this goes nowhere.
    At least we can say that we tried SOMETHING.
    Instead of just bi*ching about it, like most people do.
    And who knows, history has proven that "one man can make a difference."

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    pickenup: totally agree but notice we are not getting much response.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    TR, the only change I would make would be to from "vote for as many" to " vote for two' as some jokers would just abuse this new rule and vote for everybody on the ballot. What do you think. As soon as we settle on a final draft, I will sign it and get it to you. I will also see how many more of family and friends would sign and send them all.
    Being as that is the ONLY change I would make, I have to say "very good job" TR.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    wolf: it is all about freedom so I say let that joker vote for everyone on the ballot. Besides, an added bonus of letting the joker do that is that there would be no need to moniter how each voter voted in regards to voting for two canadidates or all of them. Great idea about printing extra copies and asking friends, co-workers, family, etc. to sign them. If we could send in a couple hundred signed letters that WOULD get the attention of those running the Liberterian party (who ever they are, I can't find any particular names) or whatever party we mail to.



    Also I wish there was someway wwe could get some attention from the majority on the general discussion side. But I am not about to call their attention to this idea because some of those people really don't like me and I would just be setting myself up for abuse. Again.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    Screw the people who don't like it. The ones who do should have the benefit of choosing to do this. If we keep worrying about what some of those boneheads think, we will for sure run out of time to make changes the easy way. That's what gets me about these folks who don't want to do anything right now because it's too hard. It's easier to do it this way, than the alternative.
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    And pickenup, your letter is awesome too. I don't know whether to advise combining them, or take them separately. More input guys, it's a toss up for me, they are both too good to discard one or the other.
  • flat8flat8 Member Posts: 887 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr fox and pickenup -

    I like the idea. Count me in. I'd gladly sign either of your letters. Very, very good idea.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    thanks flat8. We still need a bunch more people willing to sign before it would worthwhile to launch this effort. For those people who are afraid to send anything with their true name and address (I share your concern) there are ways around this. If interested just ask.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Sorry guys,been out a couple days(my anniversary).I like the letters,and will sign em!As far as those that do not like this or that ,well the heck with em!We will not no how succesful this is or was as that is the nature of American polotics.I would assume that some may complain but may just print and send the letter themselves..no one would know that way. Anyhow,got some catchin up to do.,will get back with you.....L.H.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    pickenup: I like all your suggestions and have printed them so I can lay them side-by-side with my letter and try to do some intergrating and have just one letter posted on the topic. I will then delete any other letters or parts of letters as I am beginning to think that if we display too many letters or parts of letters on the topic it will just turn into another one of those threads that go on and on and are fun to read but don't actually accomplish anything. But even at that we are not getting much support except from our regular friends. I have some work to do today, but I will get on this as soon as I can because I would like to take one letter (several copies) to work this week and try to get some signutures there. (final letter posted 2-23-04)

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    TR, good, lay side by side, put the two together, and nothing will be missed. Post it, and we will start signing. Let's get going.[:D]
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    TR FOX...I admire your fire! I dont post here much, but i'm always reading what you guys have to say. I agree with all of it! I'll sign your letter. I like your idea and i think it will work with some support.Just an idea, there are over 20,000 members here at G.B. When you have your final draft, would it be more effective to make it a sticky on the the General Discussion board? Or maybe all the boards? Also could you e-mail the letter in form and i'll forward it to the talk radio station that started the Calif. recall. With any luck they will put it on their website. They have web fans all over the U.S. I think the general public(as in voters)are fed up with corrupt politics as usual. It seems like every time i cast my vote it's wasted. The only choice we seem to have is the lessor of two evils! I'd sooner go down fighting than to sit on my butt and watch this country continue down the road it's going, so i'm with you all the way. TRAP
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    trapp55: I like your style! You are welcome to do anything you want with our letter, although you might want to wait until we get the final draft so there is only one letter (or maybe 2 at the most) floating around out there.. Man I had NEVER though of making our letter a sticky on the general discussion board. That is a most excellent idea and when we do get our final draft I will inquire as just how we might get that done. Thanks and will be back on this soon, next day or so.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Fox, if i can get your final draft posted on www.kfso.com ,you better get a bigger mail box! Have you noticed all the politics heating up over on the G.D. board? Alot of it is on this subject. "If we don't vote for Bush, what do we do?" Maybe this is the answer they need.
  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,350 ******
    edited November -1
    Since we cannot sit down and hash this out over a cup of coffee.
    This is the only way we have at our disposal, to do any brainstorming.
    Of course I think all my brain would produce is a little squall, if that.

    TRAP55, Welcome to the outlands. [:D]

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • dsmithdsmith Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I like the idea of having a truly pro freedom candidate for president. However how "free" are the liberatiarians? Would the libs let me register new (post-86) submachine guns, or would they be just as "hesitant" as the Republicans? If there is no real difference one that topic, what's the real point. G.W. Bush isn't really doing anything to actively hurt us gun owners (the assault weapon ban will expire whether he likes it or not). To sum it up, the Republicans aren't really hurting us, and the only real way I'd vote Libertarian would be if they promise, and at least have some track record of removing the laws that are already on the books. Don't get me wrong though, I do think it's important to get more parties.

    Also, as a conservative Catholic, I don't like the thought of voting for somebody who is pro-abortion. My ideal candidate would be someone who is 100% pro-life and 100% pro-gun, not these on-again-off-again-too-scared-to-make-a-stand politicians.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Hi everybody. Please be paitent for the final draft. I took copies of my letter and pickenup letter to work and am getting some enthusiast help on corrcting my grammer (I didn't know I was that bad) and I appreciate those of you who noticed my bad grammer and did not complain, although since this is for a good cause that is more important than my ego I would not have been offended. Give me a few more days to get the final letter done in regards to intergrating pickenup's ideas and correcting my grammer (I seem to like to use incomplete sentences a lot) and also trying to say as much as we can in as few words as we can. Because we must remembers that the letter is not designed to just convice some of the alternative political parties, but to first convince readers of the letter that they agree with and actually want to sign the letter.

    trapp55: I will sent a final copy of the letter to the address you posted after I post the final copy and get last minute responses from some of the guys here. I hope you will fill the mailbox (which I need to go rent).

    dsmith: we are not actually trying to promote any particular alternative political party, just trying to bring about the circumstances where all alternative parties can actually have a chance at winning elections.

    (final letter posted 2-23-04)

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    TR your last point to dsmith was an excellent one that needed to be brought out, Thank you for doing that
    dsmith, it sounds as though you and I have the same political ideology, as my two main issues are gunrights and abortion as well. Other issues like taxes, entitlements, anything that undermines the constitution are important as well, but those are the two I work hardest on.
    I have no input to add to the letter as I think you guys covered it VERY well. Thanks to you both and anybody else that comes up with anything that was missed, though I do not know what that would be. If I do think of anything before final draft, I will post it.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    JPWolf: You are welcome. It is kind of ironic in that my co-worker helping me with perfecting the letter is also named J and I think P and then Wolf.

    Update. My co-worker J.Wolf took a copy of my letter and pickenups letter home to work on helping perfect it. His girlfriend Donna got interested and after she understood the idea about the voting change she loved it. She made an offer which unless someone here has reasons not to do so, I plan on doing. After we get the letter perfected she wants to take it to her workplace, Kansas University in Lawrence, KS and show it to a couple of Political Science professors and get their opinion. NOT THAT WE ARE GOING TO RETREAT ON THIS IDEA, but if those professors can alert us to any vague or unworkable idea or part of an idea expressed in the letter we would be able to "clean it up" before exerting effort to spread it as far and wide as we can. I know this means another delay, but I think feedback from a couple of experts can be priceless in that we might not launch an idea that would be easily shot down, but would make the idea as "perfect" as possible. And since I have been mulling this idea over for a few decades, another week or so won't hurt. But I at the same time I don't want you guys to lose interest. Everyone ok with that? Roll call.
    (final letter posted 2-23-04)

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    Sounds like a champeen mouse catcher to me[:D] In other words, good idea, AGAIN!
  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,350 ******
    edited November -1
    Tr,
    The more the merrier. A small delay is not going to hurt us. I would be extremely interested in the professors "professional" opinions. We want to get it as "right" as possible the FIRST time. Who knows, they might shoot us full of holes. (pun intended)

    dsmith,
    As tr fox pointed out, we are not endorsing any ONE political party. I think we should mail these to as many political parties as we can. We just used Libertarian in the outline, as it is the third largest party. And in the final copy, we should not have the word "Libertarian" in it.

    Maybe we should work on that now? Hmmm......


    Disclaimer;
    I am a Libertarian, as they come closer (to what I believe) than any other party. Even though I do NOT believe in "everything" their platform stands for. They come closer than anyone else.


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    FOX...I like the idea of the political science professors taking a look at it. It's not a delay, you don't pull the trigger at half cock!

    PICKENUP...Thanks for the welcome! I like the "outlands" ,my kinda people!
  • WarbirdsWarbirds Member Posts: 15,383 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I really like the idea, like trapp55 I spend lots of time reading what you guys have to say, and I make very few posts in here. Mostly you guys are more educated on the laws that you're speaking of than I am. I'll be happy to print one up and send it off. Do you guys have a date that you expect this to happen?

    R/

    Dave


    How different the world would be if we could consult the veteran instead of the politician. - Henry Miller
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Thanks everybody.

    pickenup, you are on to something with your comment. I am planning on removing any reference to any PARTICULAR alternative party. Reason being, as has already been questioned by one of our members, this is not about any one alternative party such as the Liberterians and we don't want to confuse any potential supporters by not making that clear. As you have stated, it about giving voters more choices from ALL the alternative parties, no matter which one that supporter may like or dislike.

    Dave W. the ready date will depend on severall things such as how much time we can spend on it here in K.C. and how quickly the political science professors respond.

    But this idea is NOT going back into the bottle. The American people have the freedom and power to bring about and have any reasonable thing they want, regardless of who finds fault with it. And this will be one of those reasonable things.
    (final letter posted 2-23-04)

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • NANA Member Posts: 20 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Count me in, I think we should also have the right to eject "any" public servant in "any" position or office, by way of a public vote. We must be able to control our own government not let it slip away............again.

    Finish it I will sign it and send it your way, and thanks for the efforts!!

    {)xxxx{:::::::>TRESPASSERS WILL BE VIOLATED! <:::::::}XXX(}
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Sounds good guys,I am here and ready to sign,and pass some out to sign etc. L.H.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Be patient. The orignal letter, posted at the top of this topic posting was WAY to imperfect. Let me come up with another one. Don't give up, this is going to happen.
    (final letter posted 2-23-04)

    Quote "When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions."
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by NA
    Count me in, I think we should also have the right to eject "any" public servant in "any" position or office, by way of a public vote. We must be able to control our own government not let it slip away............again.

    Finish it I will sign it and send it your way, and thanks for the efforts!!

    {)xxxx{:::::::>TRESPASSERS WILL BE VIOLATED! <:::::::}XXX(}


    They did this with the cali.Govenor didn't they......I wonder just how many other positions in public office have that sort of a provision in other states........anyone know?????This is a somewhat pleasent thought,a tool to use to make a point,here and there???
  • pickenuppickenup Member, Moderator Posts: 22,350 ******
    edited November -1
    There are procedures in place to eject most any public official. They just got rid of the Mayor of Georgetown. In a different place they are in the process of getting rid of the county assessor (I think that is what he is, not my county, so I did not keep up with it)


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    Seems like this would be a great tool ,right time,right place eh? Think of it,if they all Actually started wooryin bout KEEPING their job.....They just may start LISTENING for once.....
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    LH, One i'd like to see is; No tax,fee,or goverment employee wage increase may be levied until approved by the voters on a ballot initiative. Have you ever compared the wage levels between civil service and the private sector?
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Trapp55: it is worse than you think.

    Quote "When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions."
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Fox, wouldn't you and fellow employees like to be able to increase your own wages with a vote? I'm sure there would be those who would vote 'nay'. NOT!
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    yeah, I'm not sure how congress got themselves such a sweet deal about being able to vote themselves a raise. Heck, if it's fair and good for congress,let's extend that right to every working person.

    Quote "When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions."
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    They already have to people who don't work!
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    roger that.

    Quote "When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions."
  • longhunterlonghunter Member Posts: 3,242
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by TRAP55
    LH, One i'd like to see is; No tax,fee,or goverment employee wage increase may be levied until approved by the voters on a ballot initiative. Have you ever compared the wage levels between civil service and the private sector?


    Yes I have,and most of the Politicians get more in benifets than a lot os Americans get in pay.....and their pay is around 3X the avg.working stiff as well!Growing up I lived near a gov't.installation where the "gophers"made more than most anyone on the outside.These were just folks that simply go from one place to another distributing papers ,sometimes they actually bring things needed,mostly they just keep walking ariound looking like they are.But they can't be "fired"Gotta go thru the union for that....Its worse on Capitol Hill,Someone do a search and get a list of the workers there,heck leave the poiticians out of it,just the workers,see how many there are,what their job description is and how much Money they make.Its a real eye opener for anyone that hasn't seen it! Ultimatly we have ourselves to blame....so busy trying to make more money to get more "things"that we have not paid attention ........
  • lcranchlcranch Member Posts: 72 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What a great concept. I found my self attracted to JP"s two votes but I realized that it had to do with aneed for it to be orderly and proper. A concern of ,well those against it, would say "this is too chaotic" But as you think about it, it accomplishes a great,which makes me worry about the fat cats who want nothing to change. It's too powerful it would take the power away from a few powerful people
    an bring about a democracy that is too democratic. It's too good of an idea it seems to me, so it would be thought of as number 1 on the must destroy list[:p] So get ready to be martyred I'm in.[;)]

    Woodsie
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