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44 Mag/Special Accuracy Issues
floorguy24
Member Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
While shooting 4 separate loads today, I found 2 loads had accuracy problems. All four loads were using Hodgdon Universal. All rounds were being shot at 25 yards from the same gun, a S&W 629 w/4" barrel.
1)44 Magnum- 8.35 grains of powder, plain round nose 240 grain non-jacketed lead bullets. No problems, very accurate. Been shooting 100's of these loads, no accuracy issues.
2)44 Magnum- 11 grains of powder, Hornaday JHP 200 grain bullets. VERY inaccurate. Just loaded 50 and was shooting these for the first time today.
3)44 Special- 5.25 grains of powder, plain round nose 240 grain non-jacketed lead bullets. No problems, very accurate. Been shooting 100's of these loads, no accuracy issues.
4)44 Special- 6.8 grains of powder, Hornaday JHP 200 grain bullets. VERY inaccurate. Just loaded 50 and was shooting these for the first time today.
What I'm wondering is, should I switch the powder for these loads in red to something else? Like Hodgdon Titegroup or H110? Is the Hodgdon Universal causing this "inaccuracy" at higher loads?
1)44 Magnum- 8.35 grains of powder, plain round nose 240 grain non-jacketed lead bullets. No problems, very accurate. Been shooting 100's of these loads, no accuracy issues.
2)44 Magnum- 11 grains of powder, Hornaday JHP 200 grain bullets. VERY inaccurate. Just loaded 50 and was shooting these for the first time today.
3)44 Special- 5.25 grains of powder, plain round nose 240 grain non-jacketed lead bullets. No problems, very accurate. Been shooting 100's of these loads, no accuracy issues.
4)44 Special- 6.8 grains of powder, Hornaday JHP 200 grain bullets. VERY inaccurate. Just loaded 50 and was shooting these for the first time today.
What I'm wondering is, should I switch the powder for these loads in red to something else? Like Hodgdon Titegroup or H110? Is the Hodgdon Universal causing this "inaccuracy" at higher loads?
Comments
You don't list group sizes or explain what you mean by "accurate" so we have no way to know if there's even a problem.
Changing powders is usually good only for fine tuning, very poor accuracy is a sign to me that the bullet is not right.
I've shot a lot of them from a 29 with both powders.
Both very accurate.
As far as the load, I got it off the Hodgdon load data chart/website.
Group size went from 4" grouping for the "accurate" loads, and 12" to off the paper for the "inaccurate" loads.
The crimping didn't look any different then the Hornaday factory loads I had to compare to when I loaded my own. I do have the 4th crimping die in my Lee carbide die set. Single stage loaded.
I picked up the 200 grain because that's all they had in stock at the time at the Graf and Sons website.
Alternating lead and jacketed can be dangerous because each type bullet leaves behind different metallic fouling. running a jacketed bullet through a leaded bore - or vice versa - can dramatically raise pressures.
Your loads were "three strikes" and out: wrong bullet, no workup, and incompatible bore fouling. You were possibly very lucky not to have damaged your gun or yourself.
There's no polite way to say this: your reloading practices need a serious re-think.
Hodgdon does not show that bullet in their data with either chambering. They do show the 200 Nosler, but that is a different bullet and very likely to produce different results. You DID jump immediately to the maximum charge weight with no workup, which is doubly dangerous considering you substituted a different bullet.
Alternating lead and jacketed can be dangerous because each type bullet leaves behind different metallic fouling. running a jacketed bullet through a leaded bore - or vice versa - can dramatically raise pressures.
Your loads were "three strikes" and out: wrong bullet, no workup, and incompatible bore fouling. You were possibly very lucky not to have damaged your gun or yourself.
There's no polite way to say this: your reloading practices need a serious re-think.
Wow, looks like I blew it on this one. I thought (obviously was wrong) that the NOS JHP was for my Hornaday JHP. I didn't know the NOS was for the actual bullet manufacturer. Had I known that, I never would have gone and loaded it.
However, what I did do correctly(well, kind of I suppose)was go 15% less on these loads 4 weeks ago and didn't notice any issues. That's why I went to the higher charge. I shot all those out, having only loaded 25 of each and didn't have any issues. I also didn't do any lead bullet shooting at the time. Those were my testing loads, so I moved on to the higher ones and experienced what I already described.
And as for the alternating lead and jacketed, my bad again. I didn't know that until now.
You're right, I was lucky not to have harmed my gun or myself. Even after I thought I was doing the right things, I see I wasn't.
This is why I post here and ask you guys for advice. If I don't, I'll never know.
1) I'll be checking the actual bullet manufacturer/s website/s for the proper powder/charge, not just Hodgdon.
2) No more loading the wrong bullet/s by mistake due to me reading something incorrectly.
3) No more alternating lead/jacketed cartridges when shooting.
Thanks.
The right way to work up a load is to begin with the listed Start charge, using the exact components listed if possible. Increase the charge in small increments if results warrant it. By "small increments" the generally accepted method is to have four to five steps between Start and the listed Max. That can be anything from a tenth of a grain per step for small handgun rounds to two grains per step for megamagnum rifle rounds.
Don't always expect to get to the Max book charge. Different guns (or slightly different components) can mean you top out somewhere below book max. A chronograph is the best and safest tool for determining this. Once you hit the book maximum speed, you are probably also at the book maximum pressure -- even if you are not yet at the book maximum charge weight. Without a chronograph, you are left pretty much guessing but some good clues are harder extraction, sudden change in primer appearance - or much worse accuracy.
Lastly, keep your experiments valid by changing only one thing at a time. Don't change primers or brass brand or crimp or especially lead and jacketed bullet types in addition to powder charge. If you change two things and get worrisome results, which of the two caused it? You can't know.
While it is not a good idea to start bullet Brand B with a maximum load published or developed for bullet Brand A, if you insist on a individual "recipe" for every bullet on the market, you will have very slow progress.
It only gets tricky when the bullet maker provides no data, as with Remington, Winchester, and specialty bullet makers.
quote:I thought (obviously was wrong) that the NOS JHP was for my Hornaday JHP. I didn't know the NOS was for the actual bullet manufacturer. Had I known that, I never would have gone and loaded it.
While it is not a good idea to start bullet Brand B with a maximum load published or developed for bullet Brand A, if you insist on a individual "recipe" for every bullet on the market, you will have very slow progress.
Agreed.
That's why many of us have long recommended that reloaders use the bullet maker as their primary source of load data, cross-checked with data from the powder maker.
It only gets tricky when the bullet maker provides no data, as with Remington, Winchester, and specialty bullet makers.
No worries, I appreciate the advice. I didn't take it wrong, instead I took it seriously. That's why I'm posting here. No screwing around.
Without having the current Hornady book yet, could you possibly let me know what the "starting" and "max" loads are from your book for both the 44 Mag & the 44 Special with the Hornady 200 grain JHP? I'm going to order the book, but can't seem to find the loading data anywhere else yet. As far as the powder goes, whatever you may recommend I'm fine with. It won't be Hodgdon Universal, obviously. I realize there are multiple choices. I'm looking for an accurate/powerful load for both. I currently use Starline brass and Federal primers. If you'd rather not post it, I understand.
Thanks again.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=534968
Nice find.
I listed everything I was going to load, asking only about the size of the bullet.
Very interesting.
I've since got the Nosler 200 grain JHP and they shot very well/accurate as did the Hornaday 200 grain JHP, both with Universal powder. I can find no difference at all between the two bullets while shooting, so the powder is just fine. Even after working up in loads from the lowest to the near maximum.
Thank's again for everyone's help.