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Wildcat 12GA From Hell.--

2456711

Comments

  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Temblor- They might do for buffalo. others make heavier
    slugs hardened the same way. The 730 goes through
    about 3 ft of hardwood slabs bundled together.Ed
  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wow, thats a big size
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
    bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
    me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
    make dies and start.Got commitment for 400
    already.Let me know if interested.We are getting
    a 1887 12ga lever gun to test our cases in.Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
    Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
    I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
    made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
    slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
    Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
    but this was easier about 5 seconds,
    after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
    of .500 slug.Ed
  • RustyNailRustyNail Member Posts: 803 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hubel458
    We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
    Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
    I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
    made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
    slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
    Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
    but this was easier about 5 seconds,
    after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
    of .500 slug.Ed


    Wow, that must be some impressive recoil!![:0]

    Do you happen to know how much the gun weighs--(I'm trying to calculate the felt recoil).[^]
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The gun is 25 lbs and has a big recoil pad.
    With great balance that helps with recoil.Ed.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    WOW!
    Who would of ever tunk you could do something like that.[:D][:D][:D] Thats some fine work.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes it is a fun project.Look
    at the hairy fun the Borchardt is putting out.
    We get questions about recoil.
    My Savage is a ice creamcat being heavy
    relative to the loads...Now Rob's gets exciting...
    Rob shot a few 1000 grain Bridgers at 3250 fps
    and he said he couldn't go any higher as recoil
    was "severe". His Borchardt is 24 lbs, and can take
    any pressure you could load for it and still
    hang on. Cartridges of this size really gets
    the juices flowing at over 23,000 ft lbs..Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
    inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
    with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed

    1887.jpg
  • beararms2beararms2 Member Posts: 79 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm impressed! What kind of downrange performance (other than total devastation) are you getting with these things? Will they group? Range?
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    With Savage, peep sights and bad eyes I get
    4 in group at 50 yds. Rob with his scoped gun
    gets them nearly in one hole. Ed
  • beararms2beararms2 Member Posts: 79 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Got a few more questions! Is there much difference groupwise with the different projectiles, and is it accurate enough to hunt animals in the 75-100 yd range? Where did you get your barrel for the Savage?[?]
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Find the load you like and get decent groups with
    it is good to 200 yds at our velocities. Say a
    600 gr hardened slug at 26-2900. Savage 210 comes with
    scope rail. We got our barrels from Pac-Nor, mine a
    31 in long and 1 x 20 twist barrel blank.
    I turned it myself extra heavy for experimenting.
    They will also profile them for you.For our type of
    loads in Savage 1.43 inch minimum at breech, 1.2
    min at the muzzle.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
    developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
    long are for use in NEF and shortened
    in 1887. These cases have shotgun
    primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
    reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
    Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
    So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
    the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
    wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
    that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
    in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
    I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
    Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
    the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
    of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
    expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
    Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
    using less wad column.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tested bras and plastic 3 inch cases,
    got a whole bunch of loads figured out.
    Then I just NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
    has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
    Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
    8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
    NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
    have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
    a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
    flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
    primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
    Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
    work up if pressures allow.Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We tested turned brass cases and plastic cases
    that have regular primers.We have to use
    fast burning shotgun powder to start slower
    powder loads with small primers.
    We tested RE-7 and RE-15. Re-15 is better
    with less case expansion and wear.
    Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
    600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
    of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
    In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
    and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
    cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
    max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
    hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
    load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
    You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
    so as not to push it away from primer.
    Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
    and be slow enough to get velocities up
    without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
    Will have some in couple days.I made contact
    to get some of these loads pressure tested,
    to check my pressure calculations..Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The 4759 loads are the best for 2.75 & 3" cases
    600gr at over 1800 fps. Ignition perfect.
    Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
    loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
    all alloy steel construction, tested to
    about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
    site shows testing at the Italian proof house
    of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
    working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that
    extreme pressure, means that other quality
    O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

    z_espedition2.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
    loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
    Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
    slug load, expands the base of the case
    more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
    more speed, in the same kind of
    Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
    for sure what we have wrought..Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
    Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
    Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
    crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
    90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
    Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
    Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
    tested with transducer test ing setup,
    in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
    Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
    my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
    that I figured with my math would
    have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
    OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
    Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
    the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
    that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
    will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
    will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
    or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
    I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
    than our 4759 loads.Ed
  • CubsloverCubslover Member Posts: 18,601 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hubel458
    Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
    Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
    Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
    crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
    90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
    Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
    Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
    tested with transducer test ing setup,
    in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
    Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
    my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
    that I figured with my math would
    have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
    OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
    Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
    the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
    that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
    will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
    will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
    or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
    I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
    than our 4759 loads.Ed



    Time to start sellin em. Good work Hubel, very impressive.
    Half of the lives they tell about me aren't true.
  • buddybbuddyb Member Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mr.Hubel you are now on my hero list.
  • knightriderknightrider Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hubel458
    We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
    inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
    with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed

    1887.jpg



    Umm I would not do that if I were you. The 1887 was not ment for high powered rounds, even if this is a copy and better metal. But if you want to blow away $500, around about price for the 1887, have at it but next time give me the money instead.[:D]
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The replica 87 was tested at White Labs at 43,000 psi,
    with fast shotgun powder.Our slower powder 4759 loads at
    much lower pressures won't harm it in plastic.
    Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
    A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
    a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
    2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
    pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
    and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
    and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
    same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
    was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
    to put in my max loads, but go down a
    little and use in modern guns that
    are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
    you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
    to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
    to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
    One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
    handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
    for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
    chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
    converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
    a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
    Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
    are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
    of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
    Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
    extractor.A 788 Rem
    may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
    For repeater action, Open mag
    well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
    12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
    the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
    as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have also found that the rear locking lug
    idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
    long enough for our long case with little
    work. Work long case as singleshot.
    Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
    The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
    goose guns built same way.The
    left locking lug woud get a bite out on
    its end if front was bored out to .900,
    tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
    But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
    down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
    opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
    strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
    Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
    as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
    Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
    cutout to support case opposite extractor.
    The original lugs will guide for feeding.
    Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We are making a big falling block
    action by scaling up a nice looking one.
    Here is picture of top part of the
    first scale-up model, next to smaller
    Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
    trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
    It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
    etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
    mill table to do the machining.Next machining
    will be the hole and slot down through the
    action for breech block and hammer to
    slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
    get some tooling.I had none when we set up
    vertical mill, and have to get more.The
    action model also will be narrowed up when
    finished, and contoured to look as good
    as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

    su.jpg
  • 1KYDSTR1KYDSTR Member Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dear God Hubel...superimpressive! I do, however, have some trepidation as regards the 1887, even with your case cut back by half?!?! Is that thing original? I would approach with caution as that is not the strongest action JMB ever devised! Either way, I really like what you are dooing there...tres impressive!
  • 1KYDSTR1KYDSTR Member Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry about that...I replied at the end of the FIRST page and missed all the technical datum you presented. I am really impressed, for whatever that is worth. Do you guys work on Marlin 1895 GG's? I would like to beef mine up and keep it chambered in 45/70 so that I might use some of the bolt action level loads I have seen for Mausers. I know of the conversions in 450 Alaskan and 510 Kodiak, but would just like a "Super" 45-70 lever gun.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Haven't worked on those guns. Maybe you
    could do a longer version like 45-90.
    Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
    in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
    hammer with beefed up spring would fire
    bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
    of the action so 12ga cases would feed
    into the action and temp chamber
    They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
    makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
    on that.The original Wickcliffe
    action that we want to scale up is tall
    enough so that when breech block is
    lowered the block clears the bottom
    a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
    So in the scale up we need to just add a
    a little width for wider breech block,
    and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
    sides thick for strength.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
    4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
    14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
    pattern huge due to rifling, even with
    shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
    and went through 1/8 steel on end of
    stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
    In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
    With three 3.5" plastic cases with
    100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
    a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
    in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
    the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
    chamber lengthened for our longer
    brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
    long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
    linkage, etc, set up on a block to
    get the geometry for the scaleup model working
    ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
    hole in the action, in right place.Also used
    this model to get hammer and trigger set
    up to ride on the breech block. With
    a strong hammer and trigger in the right
    place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
    lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
    will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
    pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
    style extractor on the left side and a spacer
    on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
    breech block stop at the bottom of the
    breech travel.So to get block stopped at
    right position for the diameter of the case
    and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
    Ruger extractors from GP changed
    a little bit will do.Ed.

    70.jpg

    71.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is sectioned action with parts in.
    Original action that had defects
    that I sectioned down the middle..I
    ground out the top to allow case
    to set higher, representing a
    the taller action that we will
    have due to larger diameter cases.
    That lever in the picture is the
    lever we will use with longer stroke.
    Also in the action layout is the
    breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
    12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
    This lever looks to be easier to fit
    and shape to bigger action and stock,
    with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
    Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed


    hta.jpg
  • firebawlpfirebawlp Member Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    hubel458, just curious to what kind of thumbhole stock is on that H&R. I've been looking for something styled that way. Thanks.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That stock is nothing you can buy for NEF
    It is an early State Arms 50cal stock that I
    cut apart and reworked and drilled a
    stock bolt hole to fit NEF.You can buy
    butt stock blanks on ebay and carve
    one like that. Only put the thumbhole alittle
    lower and the bottom of stock more horizontal
    to the pistol grip part of thumbhole
    for more strength.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is pic of the first finished model
    breech block for scaleup model. You
    hammer and trigger in the back of
    the block. Ed

    block.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
    Rocky MTN is making me some
    3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
    That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
    bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
    2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
    average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
    Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
    for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
    made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
    And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
    That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed


    28.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of the first falling block
    model of aluminum, with a roughed out
    stock to see how it looks. Action is a
    rough model. It shoulders nice, and
    lever is inlet into pistol grip,
    so you can't get banged up
    fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
    for, like levers that stick down at the
    guard.Ed


    hfb.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is pic of action model with lever open
    and the breech block down. Also the action
    will have a slot in the top rear for a
    top tang of whatever length you need.
    Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed

    hfbo.jpg
  • IAMAHUSKERIAMAHUSKER Member Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Man, there are some really talented and knowledgeable people on this board. What the heck am I doing here?????? Very impressive!
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is pic of a double that I will put
    barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
    section for the monoblock. This one will be
    for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
    my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
    with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
    heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
    heavier one so as to run pressures like my
    Savage as a minimum.Ed.

    zab.jpg
This discussion has been closed.