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Confusing Sight In,,,??????,,EDIT,,,,,,

forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,469 ✭✭✭✭
EDIT,,,,,

After finding nothing wrong with the weapon(bore, chamber, muzzle, rifling, etc.,,,,,,,I had the owner switch to 180gr. Winchester Power Point I had laying around and the rifle shoots fine. It's not a benchrest weapon [;)] but 1 1/2" groups at 100yds will work considering the trigger pull is heavy and long as a 'well rope',,,,,Tried another brand of 150gr. and they were all over the place. I'm curious and will custom load some 180gr. and 150gr. for the owner to try. So, at this point it looks like it's a 180gr'er,,,,,[:0]


Two Savage Model 99 .308 rifles,,,,,,,,,,

150gr. Remington factory rounds,,,,,,

168gr. Sierra Match King @ approx. 2400/sec.,,,,,,

100yd. paper target on foam board

Rifles locked in bench rest,,,,,,,

Problem: My rifle with both cartridges shoots a decent group considering the trigger pull which is excessive.

The other rifle shoots all over the target(scope, mounts and rings are tight).

The other rifle shoots weird patterns with evidence of the projectile trying to 'keyhole',,,,,In addition there are small(tiny) perforations in the target that appear like the bullet is disintegrating prior to impact(doesn't make sense at 100yds..

There is definitely 'one' key hole,,,,the rest are tear like holes. The backing on the target is good with nothing but clean entrance holes from limited prior shooting.

The factory muzzle crown looks okay and there appears to be no unusual wear in the last couple of inches of the bore,,,,,the rifle shows little evidence of high round count.

I have not slugged the barrel yet re the bore to bullet size.
The owner has not shot the weapon in 30+ years and can't recall any prior problems.

Other than a Nikon 3x9 scope the rifle is stock factory.

The reloads shoot MOA groups from another friends '03,,,,,,

Any ideas as to a possible problem/solution.

Comments

  • 62fuelie62fuelie Member Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Take a cleaning rod that swivels at the base. Fit a tight-to-bore patch on a cleaning brush, using a piece of masking tape make a "flag" at the bottom of the rod next to the swivel, insert about 1"-2" into the rifling so that the flag starts to rotate. Make a mark on the rod with a marker at the muzzle, push the rod slowly into the barrel until the flag has made one full rotation, mark the rod at the muzzle again. Push the rod thru and then pull it back out. Measure the distance between the marks. If they are the same for both rifles then the spin rate is not your problem. If one is +/- 10" and the other is +/- 14" then the slow twist rifle may have difficulty stabilizing the heavier bullet and may account for the erratic "grouping" and keyholes.
  • 62fuelie62fuelie Member Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Take a cleaning rod that swivels at the base. Fit a tight-to-bore patch on a cleaning brush, using a piece of masking tape make a "flag" at the bottom of the rod next to the swivel, insert about 1"-2" into the rifling so that the flag starts to rotate. Make a mark on the rod with a marker at the muzzle, push the rod slowly into the barrel until the flag has made one full rotation, mark the rod at the muzzle again. Push the rod thru and then pull it back out. Measure the distance between the marks. If they are the same for both rifles then the spin rate is not your problem. If one is +/- 10" and the other is +/- 14" then the slow twist rifle may have difficulty stabilizing the heavier bullet and may account for the erratic "grouping" and keyholes.
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,390
    edited November -1
    I would look very carefully at BORE size. I have two Colt Lightning
    rifles in 32-20 . one with a fair bore and the other with a great looking bore The one with the poor shot 2-3 inch groups off the bench at 50 yards with iron sights. The great looking bore would start to keyhole at 25 yards and fail to hit a 24 inch square full face pistol target 2 or 3 times out of 10 shots. I loaded some hollowbase wadcutters bullets I had been using into these 32/20 shells from my 32Long Bulls eye bullets used in my pistol. These shot 1&1/2 inch groups out of the great bore rifle . The bore was over sized and .314 bullets would almost fall through the bore. I would slug the bore on your two guns .then take that same slug and push from muzzle to chamber. Also use some kroilon a wrapped up tight paper towel just ahead of chamber let soak for 48hours then clean. Throat of chamber might have build up of jacket. If you find trouble come back and update Please.
  • MG1890MG1890 Member Posts: 4,649
    edited November -1
    Doubt that there was ever a model 99 .308 built that was not designed to stabilize these bullet weights.. twist rate should not be an issue.

    Is there excessive copper fouling in the bore? Do the fired casings look consistant, are the fired primers the same?
  • 260260 Member Posts: 1,134
    edited November -1
    the barrel needs to be viewed with a borescope. i suspect a pitted barrel, lands,etc.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 62fuelie
    Take a cleaning rod that swivels at the base. Fit a tight-to-bore patch on a cleaning brush, using a piece of masking tape make a "flag" at the bottom of the rod next to the swivel, insert about 1"-2" into the rifling so that the flag starts to rotate. Make a mark on the rod with a marker at the muzzle, push the rod slowly into the barrel until the flag has made one full rotation, mark the rod at the muzzle again. Push the rod thru and then pull it back out. Measure the distance between the marks. If they are the same for both rifles then the spin rate is not your problem. If one is +/- 10" and the other is +/- 14" then the slow twist rifle may have difficulty stabilizing the heavier bullet and may account for the erratic "grouping" and keyholes.



    ,,,,did the twist rate,,,both are 1 in 12,,,,
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ,,,,no fouling and the bore is very clean with deep grooves and sharp rifling in both rifles,,,,,the problem rifles bore looks better of the two,,,,


    Casings from both rifles look good,,,,,no distortion and the primers show no indication of pressure or primer flow, etc.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Slug the bore, while you do it feel for a bulged spot.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Slug the bore, while you do it feel for a bulged spot.




    Charlie,,,,that's the next step,,,,,,but I'm still puzzled at the apparent bullet disintegration at or near 100yds.,,,
  • gunnut505gunnut505 Member Posts: 10,290
    edited November -1
    The "disintegration" you speak of could be the excess jacket material left in the bore for like, 30 years, spitting out when you fire a round.

    You might also check to see if the keyholing rifle's crown is square to the bore.
  • forgemonkeyforgemonkey Member Posts: 20,469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gunnut505
    The "disintegration" you speak of could be the excess jacket material left in the bore for like, 30 years, spitting out when you fire a round.
    You might also check to see if the keyholing rifle's crown is square to the bore.


    Do you think excess jacket material would travel 100yds. and still be on a 15" x 15" target ???
  • MG1890MG1890 Member Posts: 4,649
    edited November -1
    I think that something is tearing up the bullet jacket. The traces of jacket on the target & the keyholing are the indicators. Put the 'ole JB to it.... You will feel any tight / loose spots right away.
  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 258 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The throat is rough,cutting the jacket. On firing, jacket is starting to separate. Needs a good soaking with a cleaning solvent. Then brushed.
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Give it or them a good barrel rifle cleaning.

    I had a very bad grouping 30:06 awhile back. Did not know the guns history as it came from a gun show as a nice clean gun, but had been hunted and apparently shot several times and not cleaned of cu fouling.

    Groups were pitiful. I've seen smooth bore shotguns shoot better groups at 100 yards and every once in awhile a round would go south and completely miss a 8 1/2inch x 12inch paper target at 100 yards. Tried all first, changing scopes, checking mounts. Finally Hoppes Bench rest showed high copper when left sit overnight with bore dampened with the hoppes and the patch came out green blue.

    Good careful cleaning and removing all the cu fouling and now it shoots real good average 1 inch groups at 100 yards with reloads cold bore or warm bore for last 2 years. Would not have believed such if I was not the witness.

    What do you mean by the term the rifle or rifles are "locked in a bench rest when shooting"?
    And make sure the barrel is not touching a rest when testings
    and
    just because another gun groups a load good does not mean that load is good for all guns.
  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 258 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Your update saying the rifle needs a longer bullet, makes me think something is wrong with the barrel. A bullet with a longer bearing surface helps align the bullet as it takes the rifling & exits the muzzle. A 1-12 twist should not shoot better with a longer, heavier bullet. If factory ammo is OK, then look at what your reloading, as a possible problem. [:)]
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Also I seen in ask the experts where you posted that 3 different shooters had the same results. (gun liked the 180gr bullets)

    I always listen to what the GUN is telling me about what it wants and likes and don't like for accuracy rather than me trying to tell it what I want it too like.
    (it might be a contrary FEMALE rifle that is set in it's ways)

    I would check the bore for cu fouling (or fouling in general)
    If you are reloading you might try R15 and H4895 (not IMR4895) H4895 is little slower burn rate than IMR4895 is why.

    Also weigh each hull and use hulls matched within few grain weight, such as not over 5 grains in weight difference.

    I can make some fineky guns shoot lousy reload groups just by not paying attention the the weight of the brass (and very good groups if brass is separated by weight before reloading.) A heavy weight hull will have higher pressures as compared to a lighter weight hull normally therefore groups go out the window on a contrary fineky gun.
    I also glass bed and float a barrel BEFORE I expect a decent group.
    I also pay attention to clean COLD bore shots as compared to slightly powder fouled warm barrel groups. Some guns don't like a REAL CLEAN bore.

    Is the barrel floating in the stock or does it have pressure points?
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