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Ackley Improved.........................
barbwired
Member Posts: 8,254
Please explain this to a dummy in a way I can understand it. Thank You ,Barbwired
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More powder capacity via less body taper and a sharper shoulder however the datum line remains the same so regular shells can be fire formed in the chamber.
Thank you very much.
quote:...however the datum line remains the same so regular shells can be fire formed in the chamber.
The first part of this statement is incorrect.
The 'datum line' moves from a diameter on the shoulder to the neck/shoulder junction which then allows the factory cartridge to fireformed in the new chamber.
Best.
And, an important point - not all Ackley Improved cases and cartridges are the offspring of P.O. Ackley. Many bear his name but he had nothing whatsoever to do with their development. Ackley designed many improved /wildcat cartridges that do not exhibit the sharp shoulder/minimum body taper that has come to be associated with "Ackley Improved" cartridges. The Internet has not helped. There,s a lot of mis-information in cyber space.
On the theory that a picture is worth a 1000 words
That shoulder looks very sloped for AI; are you sure that's a 40* shoulder and not a 20*?? Just wondering......
On one design,the .219 Ackley Zipper Imp dimensions are way off std .219 Zipper brass dimensions. Cases will split if you try and fire form it from 219 Zipper brass.
It's best formed from 30-30 or 32 Win Spl brass which is just necked down and fire formed.
Winchester stole that wildcat design and produced the .225 Winchester a commercial failure. The only change was to trim the Zipper Imp rim to fit a 30-06 bolt face and rename it.
Well I'm confused again.
I get that. I'm looking at a Ackley Improved .280 do I fire form the brass or not. Do I anneal the brass before reloading?
sorry, posted in your post instead of replying.
If your rifle is properly chambered, you form cases by firing a standard 280 Remington cartridge. The case that comes out is a 280 AI. If you handload, you can load up some 280 Remington brass with a mid to high end handload and do the same.
There are commercial 280 AI cartridges on the market. Assuming your chamber is cut properly, you can use them right out of the box.
Notice that I said "properly chambered". You need to confirm that your rifle has the correct AI chamber. Your best bet is to have a competant gunsmith do a chamber cast and then advise you on how to proceed to form brass. AI cartridges can be a big improvement over factory ammo but you have to know what you are doing. Many AI chambers have been improperly cut and you have to be sure of what you have.
Good Luck
Ray
So a 280 Improved chambering would fire both 280 Remington cartridges as well as 280 Improved (of the same type improved).
Incidently, PO Ackley developed a wildcat 7mm/06 Improved, which was the 30-06 necked to .284 and fired in the improved chamber to give it minimum body taper and a 40 degree shoulder. For purposes of load data 280 AI cases can use the same information, but since the 280 is slightly longer than the 30-06, the cases are not interchangeable.
Anneal only when needed, as in before sizing and after some 6 +/- firings or when neck tension starts to vary.
here is a formed 6.5-06AI case with 40? shoulder. I loaded the 140gr a-max pills over H4831sc in the parent case (necked up 25-06) and chambered them and fired them while working the load ladder. They come out perfect.
you always fireform Ackley Improved brass (unless you purchase 280AI brass from nosler). I run my load ladder, with the parent cases, in the AI chamber. It saves time and barrel life, and most always the accuracy node while fireforming, at least in my 3 improved chambers, will be the same after forming.
Anneal only when needed, as in before sizing and after some 6 +/- firings or when neck tension starts to vary.
here is a formed 6.5-06AI case with 40? shoulder. I loaded the 140gr a-max pills over H4831sc in the parent case (necked up 25-06) and chambered them and fired them while working the load ladder. They come out perfect.
Thank you and Thank you to all that has responded.I think I may just buy the .280 without being Ackley Improved. I liKe to reload. But I feel like maybe I would be better off because of not knowing enough just to stay with and reload just for the .280Thanks Again, ~x~x~Barbwired~x~x~
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Just another 2 cents worth... Rather than the 280 why not go with the 270 Winchester or 270 WSM. Ammo (unless you're reloading) will be much easier to find, I can't remember the last time I saw 280 Rem. ammo on the shelf.
Any game animal or piece of paper that you hit with one or the other will not be able to tell the difference.
Thank you and Thank you to all that has responded.I think I may just buy the .280 without being Ackley Improved. I liKe to reload. But I feel like maybe I would be better off because of not knowing enough just to stay with and reload just for the .280Thanks Again, ~x~x~Barbwired~x~x~
Just another 2 cents worth... Rather than the 280 why not go with the 270 Winchester or 270 WSM. Ammo (unless you're reloading) will be much easier to find, I can't remember the last time I saw 280 Rem. ammo on the shelf.
Any game animal or piece of paper that you hit with one or the other will not be able to tell the difference.
quote:You're right. I'm rethinking the whole thing now. Maybe moving to a larger caliber. Sorry for all of the troubles everyone went to to help me. Thank all of you.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/128050/nosler-custom-reloading-brass-280-remington-ackley-improved-40-degree-shoulder-box-of-50
forming is easy as well, as long as the gunsmith reams the chamber so that the shoulder has the acceptable .002"-.003" "crush fit" when the bolt is closed, there are no issues to be concerned with. Forming is simple, and as easy to load for as any standard cartridge. Plus, AI cartridges are just sexy[:D]
my 280AI on a trued rem700 with a 28" PacNor Select Match tube and HS precision stock
As long as the rifle you are looking for, was built by a gunsmith that knows what he is doing, you will be fine with the 280AI. The brass is available from nosler already formed.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/128050/nosler-custom-reloading-brass-280-remington-ackley-improved-40-degree-shoulder-box-of-50
forming is easy as well, as long as the gunsmith reams the chamber so that the shoulder has the acceptable .002"-.003" "crush fit" when the bolt is closed, there are no issues to be concerned with. Forming is simple, and as easy to load for as any standard cartridge. Plus, AI cartridges are just sexy[:D]
my 280AI on a trued rem700 with a 28" PacNor Select Match tube and HS precision stock
For bigger game do you think it is suitable than the 30-06 or 7mm rem mag?
quote:Originally posted by JustC
As long as the rifle you are looking for, was built by a gunsmith that knows what he is doing, you will be fine with the 280AI. The brass is available from nosler already formed.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/128050/nosler-custom-reloading-brass-280-remington-ackley-improved-40-degree-shoulder-box-of-50
forming is easy as well, as long as the gunsmith reams the chamber so that the shoulder has the acceptable .002"-.003" "crush fit" when the bolt is closed, there are no issues to be concerned with. Forming is simple, and as easy to load for as any standard cartridge. Plus, AI cartridges are just sexy[:D]
my 280AI on a trued rem700 with a 28" PacNor Select Match tube and HS precision stock
For bigger game do you think it is suitable than the 30-06 or 7mm rem mag?
Define 'bigger game'. There've been a bunch of elk fall to the 270, the 30-06, and the 7mm Rem. mag. Black bears too. I think folks get too hung up on picking the perfect cartridge and should instead be focusing on a good platform from which to launch the projectile. Accuracy and shot placement are the key and getting lost in the ballistics just confuses most folks and helps manufacturers to sell the latest and greatest 'thing'.
I shoot a 270 Win. because I don't like heavy recoil and I have confidence in it's ability to knock down big elk. In all honesty though, if I had to choose ONE cartridge and use it exclusively across the board it would probably be the 300 Win. Mag. Great accuracy potential, lots of power, and the ammo is fairly easy to find on the shelf.
Good luck in your quest!
Your fireforming load is your Improved accuracy load?
Then why bother with the Improved?
Many years ago, Col Townsend Whelen did an article, "Just a Little Bit Better." He was of the opinion that if you were starting from scratch, a .280 would be a better choice than a .30-06 or .270. That assumes a bolt action rifle, not the 742 automatic the round was introduced in, and knowledgeable handloading.
But he also said that there was not enough difference to be worth trading rifles if you had a .270 or .30-06.
Ammunition availability?
I can't remember the last time I fired a factory loaded centerfire rifle.
Your fireforming load is your Improved accuracy load?
Then why bother with the Improved?
I do believe that what JustC means is that he loads "standard" 280 brass with "Improved" level powder charges, than shoots them for both accuracy testing and fireforming at the same time.
It's the chamber that determines the final case capacity, so it follows that a "hot" load in a standard case/chamber would be a mild to mid-level load in the same case but fired in an improved chamber (the pre-firing capacity doesn't matter, it's the post-firing capacity that counts)
quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
Your fireforming load is your Improved accuracy load?
Then why bother with the Improved?
I do believe that what JustC means is that he loads "standard" 280 brass with "Improved" level powder charges, than shoots them for both accuracy testing and fireforming at the same time.
It's the chamber that determines the final case capacity, so it follows that a "hot" load in a standard case/chamber would be a mild to mid-level load in the same case but fired in an improved chamber (the pre-firing capacity doesn't matter, it's the post-firing capacity that counts)
Thanks, you get it,..but I guess my delivery isn't succinct enough for some to grab.
barbwired, I can tell you this,..when loaded right, with H4831sc, the 280AI is on the heels of a 7mm rem mag,..across my chronograph.
Based on what you've been saying, buy a 7mm Rem Mag. Guns made by everybody, ammo everywhere, will kill anything in the US, flat shooting, hits hard, can be loaded down for lighter recoil, and answers every question you have.
That's what I did! Great deal from a Estate Sale Ruger 7mm Rem Mag. With a Burris scope already on it. Thanks everybody for the comments and help. Barbwired.
On the theory that a picture is worth a 1000 words
+1!
(.270 Win 150 NBT vs .270 AI Matrix VLD)
I've developed pre-fireformed accuracy load and fireformed accuracy load to save time and barrel life. [^]