In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Dissappointed in some .223 powders

AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭
IMR8208XBR: Hodgdon manual indicates 25.8 gr. with a 50 gr. bullet yields 3407 fps. I loaded 25 gr. w/50 gr. Hornady spire and got 3009 fired in a 26" slow twist (1-14) barrel. Pressure was so low that the neck and shoulder of the cases were smoked; the cases did not obturate.

Reloader 10X: Hornady manual indicates 22.5 gr. should produce 3100 fps. I got 2903 fps from the above barrel and, again, smoked shoulders. Other powders such as Benchmark, W748, and AA2230 produce good velocities with this barrel.

CFE223: Hodgdon claims 27.8 gr. moves a 55 gr. @ 3329 fps. I get 3000 with 27 gr. from a CZ527 22" 1-12.

I guess I expected too much from these powders but, at least in the case of CFE223, they were supposed to do great things for the .223. Accuracy was poor with these powders, too.

I guess I'll stick with Benchmark, it works but now I've got 4 cans of powder that do not.

Anybody have any luck with the above powders?

Comments

  • RobOzRobOz Member Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have had great luck with CFE223 with the 223 and 308.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    What brass were you using???
    I would try going up .2 grains over the recommended loads. IE.. 26 of the xbr, 22.7 of the 10x.
    You might be in a "dead" spot with your lower loads.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ambrose,

    There are too many variables in this problem to solve it without lots of tests.

    I suggest calling Hodgdon and get a reloading tech on the phone to get the proper information right off the bat. It sounds like a slow lot of powder but they will know all the data regarding those powders. You'll have to call Alliant for the 10x obviously.

    Then again, their manual may be at fault... but I doubt it.

    Best.
  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,969
    edited November -1
    I've had good results with RE-15 out of my bolt gun [;)]
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 12,967 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    MAYBE IT'S YOUR BARREL
  • RobOzRobOz Member Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    MAYBE IT'S YOUR BARREL


    He had the similar results with a couple different barrels. He may have already ruled it out, but I would be checking my chrono.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,193 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you have radically lengthened the OAL, it may drop the pressure enough to do that.

    Also....I have a CZ550 that has the slowest barrel I have ever seen. It is accurate, but very slow.
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    but I would be checking my chrono.

    I am running a dual chronograph set-up with 5 screens, a PACT and an Oehler 35P so, esentually, I m getting three readings with each shot. Also, I ran loads with Benchmark and AA2230 on the same range session with expected results, ie., velocities a bit higher than my 22" CZ or the 24" Sako. (The subject rifle is a re-chambered 722 Remington). I am getting good accuracy with Benchmark--the last 5-shot group of the day measured .54.

    You will note in my OP I mentioned that with IMR8208XBR and RL10X at near top manual loads, I was not getting even enough pressure to fire-form the R-P brass. I am now wondering if nononsense's suggestion that the manual, doubtfully, might be wrong, has merit. Interpolation indicates that as much as 3 more grains of powder would be required to reach the velocities produced by other powders. I am reluctant to go there!

    CFE223 generates good velocity in the .17 Remington and, in some rifles, in the .222 Remington so I guess I won't dump it out.
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 12,967 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shoot some factory loads over your chronograph and see what the results show.
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mobuck:
    Shoot some factory loads over your chronograph and see what the results show.

    I can do that easily enough but I don't understand what would be accomplished by that.
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 12,967 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That would give you some insight into whether your chronograph is way out of kilter.
  • gunnut505gunnut505 Member Posts: 10,290
    edited November -1
    "Smoked shoulders" is a good clue; are you full-length resizing? If so, check that your die hasn't reset itself a little higher in the press, it could be that the shoulders haven't moved, but the sizing and seating dies have.
    As we all know, bullet pull or neck tension affects complete burning of the charge, and a "loose" bullet may not allow enough pressure to build in the critical first few milliseconds.
    That could also lead to slower velocities and poor accuracy.
    I use H335 at 24.6-25.2 grains with a 55gr. bullet in my .223s, and it works well in my Contender, Mini-14, and (the occasional)poodle gun.
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That would give you some insight into whether your chronograph is way out of kilter.

    Posted 10/04:
    Also, I ran loads with Benchmark and AA2230 on the same range session with expected results,

    The Oehler 35P checks itself with the "Proof" channel and the PACT is an additional check. 3 readings on each shot that agree within 7-10 fps leads me to believe that the chronographs are working properly. In addition, readings on other rifles fired at the same range session gave no strange results. I'm as confident as I can be that low readings with the subject powders are not the result of faulty chronograph readings.

    I guess what I'd like to know is: Has anybody on this forum chronographed .223 loads assembled with IMR8208XBR, RL10X, or CFE223 fired in a 22"-26" barrel.

    I don't actually have a problem; I have plenty of other powders on my shelves that work very well in the .223. As I indicated in the thread title, I'm just disappointed in these powders.
  • NavybatNavybat Member Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I swear by H335. However, the loads I make give me the velocity I want...but they are NOT the loads specified by Hodgdon load data. That's why you can't just blindly load up rounds and go blast. As others have said, variations in cases, OAL, powder lot, primers, etc. all factor into it.
  • ChetStaffordChetStafford Member Posts: 2,794
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Ambrose
    IMR8208XBR: Hodgdon manual indicates 25.8 gr. with a 50 gr. bullet yields 3407 fps. I loaded 25 gr. w/50 gr. Hornady spire and got 3009 fired in a 26" slow twist (1-14) barrel. Pressure was so low that the neck and shoulder of the cases were smoked; the cases did not obturate.

    Reloader 10X: Hornady manual indicates 22.5 gr. should produce 3100 fps. I got 2903 fps from the above barrel and, again, smoked shoulders. Other powders such as Benchmark, W748, and AA2230 produce good velocities with this barrel.

    CFE223: Hodgdon claims 27.8 gr. moves a 55 gr. @ 3329 fps. I get 3000 with 27 gr. from a CZ527 22" 1-12.

    I guess I expected too much from these powders but, at least in the case of CFE223, they were supposed to do great things for the .223. Accuracy was poor with these powders, too.

    I guess I'll stick with Benchmark, it works but now I've got 4 cans of powder that do not.

    Anybody have any luck with the above powders?



    I get the best accuracy and velocity with Benchmark I load 25.7 gr under a Nosler 50gr Ballistic tip with a federal 205 primer and Winchester cases. I get .200 groups at 100yds with this load at 3300 fps. It is a mild load but easy on the barrel
  • MG1890MG1890 Member Posts: 4,649
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ChetStafford
    quote:Originally posted by Ambrose
    IMR8208XBR: Hodgdon manual indicates 25.8 gr. with a 50 gr. bullet yields 3407 fps. I loaded 25 gr. w/50 gr. Hornady spire and got 3009 fired in a 26" slow twist (1-14) barrel. Pressure was so low that the neck and shoulder of the cases were smoked; the cases did not obturate.

    Reloader 10X: Hornady manual indicates 22.5 gr. should produce 3100 fps. I got 2903 fps from the above barrel and, again, smoked shoulders. Other powders such as Benchmark, W748, and AA2230 produce good velocities with this barrel.

    CFE223: Hodgdon claims 27.8 gr. moves a 55 gr. @ 3329 fps. I get 3000 with 27 gr. from a CZ527 22" 1-12.

    I guess I expected too much from these powders but, at least in the case of CFE223, they were supposed to do great things for the .223. Accuracy was poor with these powders, too.

    I guess I'll stick with Benchmark, it works but now I've got 4 cans of powder that do not.

    Anybody have any luck with the above powders?



    I get the best accuracy and velocity with Benchmark I load 25.7 gr under a Nosler 50gr Ballistic tip with a federal 205 primer and Winchester cases. I get .200 groups at 100yds with this load at 3300 fps. It is a mild load but easy on the barrel

    What are you shooting these in?
  • ChetStaffordChetStafford Member Posts: 2,794
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MG1890
    quote:Originally posted by ChetStafford
    quote:Originally posted by Ambrose
    IMR8208XBR: Hodgdon manual indicates 25.8 gr. with a 50 gr. bullet yields 3407 fps. I loaded 25 gr. w/50 gr. Hornady spire and got 3009 fired in a 26" slow twist (1-14) barrel. Pressure was so low that the neck and shoulder of the cases were smoked; the cases did not obturate.

    Reloader 10X: Hornady manual indicates 22.5 gr. should produce 3100 fps. I got 2903 fps from the above barrel and, again, smoked shoulders. Other powders such as Benchmark, W748, and AA2230 produce good velocities with this barrel.

    CFE223: Hodgdon claims 27.8 gr. moves a 55 gr. @ 3329 fps. I get 3000 with 27 gr. from a CZ527 22" 1-12.

    I guess I expected too much from these powders but, at least in the case of CFE223, they were supposed to do great things for the .223. Accuracy was poor with these powders, too.

    I guess I'll stick with Benchmark, it works but now I've got 4 cans of powder that do not.

    Anybody have any luck with the above powders?



    I get the best accuracy and velocity with Benchmark I load 25.7 gr under a Nosler 50gr Ballistic tip with a federal 205 primer and Winchester cases. I get .200 groups at 100yds with this load at 3300 fps. It is a mild load but easy on the barrel

    What are you shooting these in?




    Bone stock Remington 700 VLS and a Remington 700 SPS only shoots about.350 in the SPS but it is a coyote rifle so I say that is plenty tight enough
  • MG1890MG1890 Member Posts: 4,649
    edited November -1
    Oh. When I read that you are shooting .200" groups, I had to assume that you had a custom benchrest rifle. Consistent .200" is beyond the means of my .222 bench rifle; in a wind tunnel, no problem, but outdoors, consistently, no way.

    Shooting benchrest against VLS's has shown that once in a while a VLS or VS will lay down a 1/4" group. They are great rifles for hunting / casual target use.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    feel free to send me the misbehaving powders.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've seen several powders that will not produce good consistent accuracy and suggested velocities in one gun but another gun of same make and model would be the powder of choice for accuracy, especially 223's. When reload testing I test for consistent repeatable accuracy FIRST, cold barrel and warm barrel tests, then after I find a accurate load I test the velocity. A high velocity bullet not being consistently on target is not a desirable thing for me.
    I have one gun (223) that I was about to think it had a bad barrel and as a last resort I tested a powder that other guns did not like for accuracy and it worked great.
    When I see smoked necks I check the neck tension bullet pull and the hull for cracked neck if only one hull every once in awhile is smoked and I go to neck sizing or try backing off on the full length sizing die if several of the hulls are smoked and check the bullet expander.
    I've seen some guns that would still shoot accurately with a smoked neck hull when the proper load is found and I've also seen some guns that would shoot very accurately and a chronograph indicate inconsistent velocities which is why I use the chronograph after I've found a accurate load. If the chronograph indicates that the velocity is lower than I want or desire I then try looking for another combo to produce more velocity, but I let the gun tell me what it wants, instead of me telling the gun what I want for accuracy/velocity.
  • RCrosbyRCrosby Member Posts: 3,797 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not sure I understand the problem. Low velocities, low pressure and poor accuracy suggest to me a careful and incremental increase in powder charge. Could take care of all 3 "problems".?????
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Also noticed you said it's a 1/14 twist and you are testing a 50 gr bullet.

    You need to test with a lighter bullet, like 35gr in slow twist 223 barrels. A 50 gr will group sometimes with the correct combo of powder, but to get started you are using too heavy a bullet for a slow twist barrel. I can sometimes get a 50 gr bullet to group at 1 1/2 inch average at 100yards in few slow twist 223 barrels but the groups will usually get better or at least more consistent as the bullet get lighter in slow twist barrels. 60 and 70 gr bullets usually require a faster twist barrel in 223 like 1/7, to 1/10 and sometimes a 1/12 will group 60gr bullets.
    But each gun kinda has it's own choice, but at least start with what is suppose to MAYBE work.
  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Okie743: Thank you for your response.

    As I mentioned, the subject rifle is a rechambered Rem. 722 that was, of course, origionally a .222. 1 in 14" was the standard twist for those rifles and the factory loads were with 50 gr. bullets at around 3100 fps. My .222's deliver good accuracy with 50 & 55 gr. bullets so I tend to focus on those weights. With this rifle in .223 I am driving bullets (with powders other than the ones I posted about) somewhat faster than .222 velocities so the slow twist should not be an issue. And I am getting good results with 50 & 55's with other powders. I am not reluctant to try 40 & 45 gr. in this rifle and will eventually get to those. But my OP was about low velocities with certain powders.

    The intent of this post is that I would like to know if anyone else has chronographed .223 loads with IMR8208XBR, Reloader 10X, or CFE223 and if the results were what you expected.
  • RobOzRobOz Member Posts: 9,538 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A 50 grain bullet should stabilize fine with a 1-14 twist barrel. The only 50 grain bullets that might be a problem is the monolithic solids.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    223's in the Remington 700 type rifles can be very picky with powder types that it likes for consistent accuracy.
    When you see smoked necks, try neck sizing ONLY and slowly increase the powder charge, but if the accuracy is not their with a powder, no need to check velocity.

    You might try the powder RELOADS in another 223 rifle just to see what happens. I've found that checking velocities very rarely comes up to the FPS listing in the reload manuals. My point is I play with powders and bullet types and weights until I get good accuracy, then do the chrono testing to see what the gun seems to want. (slower burning powders for the heavier bullets and faster burning powders for the lighter weight bullets USUALLY)

    Do you have a factory 223 gun to COMPARE test the reload results OF YOUR RE-CHAMBERED 222 TO 223????
Sign In or Register to comment.