Rocky Raab--.44 Special

Ambrose

I just read your article in Handloader Magazine on plated bullets. Is your .44 Special Ruger Bisley, used in the testing, a catalog item or did you have it built?

Rocky Raab

That is the Lipsey's 2010 Special Model. They ordered 1,000 of them from Ruger. Check with your local dealer to order one from Lipsey's, not from Ruger.

BTW, it was Lipsey's who ordered 4,000 flattop 44 Specials for their 2009 Special Model. They sold so fast that Ruger kept a promise they made 50 years ago and FINALLY made it a catalog item this year. Whether that will happen for the Bisley version in 2011 is anybody's guess.

The 41 Special pictured is a custom gun. It was a four-digit 357 flattop that had been literally wrecked. I bought it as a pile of parts for $50 and David Clements turned it into what you saw. It is now worth a bit more than $50, LOL!

Hope you liked the article.

Ambrose

I did like the article. I always read the Handloader cover to cover. Thanks for the response--I'll probably try to get one of those .44's.

Rocky Raab

To be honest, I've already sold that one. I have small hands, and the grip just never felt "right" for me. Too many decades with the traditional Colt-style handles, I guess.

But within a day, I bought a regular flattop 44 Special to replace it. It's a regular Ruger (not Lipsey's) but is really accurate and actually has a better trigger than the Bisley did. That surprised me, but it's true.

B17-P51

Ruger now makes them as catalog item.Cabelas sells them at the same price as the .357

Ambrose

Rocky: I ordered one of those Flat-tops from my local dealer, yesterday. I'm not sure why I want it since I already have .44 Magnum Blackhawks. My RCBS dies won't work, either; they are marked 67 (1967) and ".44 Mag.". The sizer and the bell die will probably work, but I won't be able to crimp with the seater. So I guess I'll need another die set. My die set count must be close to 100 by now!

I will find out soon enough, but does that Flat-top have the slightly smaller frame similiar to the old 3-screw .357? And is the grip frame like the origional Flat-top or is it the XR3-RED size?

And on a not-very-related topic: Do you remember the .357/.44 Bain & Davis and the .357 Bobcat? I had a Blackhawk in Bain & Davis and still have 2 of 'em chambered for the Bobcat.

Rocky Raab

You'll LOVE the flattop. It is like handling a sports car versus a truck compared to a SBH. Your dies are a rarity. The manufacturers usually just made regular .44 Special dies and added the "/Mag" markings to them. You could always just get a seater die, but single dies cost almost as much as a set, anyway. If you'd be interested, Lee is offering to replace ANY die set with one of theirs at no cost - and you'd get their FCD and a new shellholder to boot.

As I mentioned, the flattop grip frame is not the same as the XR3-RED. I'll have to try switching some grips around to see what fits what. I'll report back.

Well, of COURSE I remember the B&D as well as the Bobcat! I had the itch for a Bobcat for a while, but got over it. Never felt that for the 357/44, oddly.

Hawk Carse

quote:still have 2 of 'em chambered for the Bobcat.

Isn't that the one with the little plastic neck sleeves?
If so, have you got a good supply?
One turns up every now and then and the Internet Ager has no idea of how to make it shoot.

Rocky Raab

Reporting back on the grip frame. The new flattop is the same size and shape as my original (5-digit) flattop, except for a slight difference at the very top and the lock pin. Both would need very minor hand fitting to mate perfectly. Unless I'm confused, the original is called the XR-3. Is that right? And the later ones are XR-3 Red?

At any rate, some aftermarket grips advertised to fit "early Blackhawk or Single Six" do NOT fit the new flattop, but do fit my Single-Six - and I always thought the Single-Six had the XR-3 frame. So now I'm REALLY confused.

Ambrose

Rocky: I think you are right on the origional being the XR-3 grip frame. I only have one early flat-top, a .44, and I'll check to see if the grip frame is marked. But I'm quite sure the later single-sixes had the same grip frames as the Blackhawks of a similiar era. I acquired a 3-screw Single-Six earlier this year and I'll check the grip frame on it.

Hawk: Yes, the Bobcat is the one that takes the little sleeves. I believe they were celcon? I have about a hundred sleeves--they are re-useable. They were supposed to be glued on (I don't remember what glue you were supposed to use!) but it's not necessary; you just have to be careful when you load the cylinder. The sleeves lock on the fired case and extract fine. You have to size the case/sleeve in a standard .44 die and the sleeve stays in the die and the case comes out. I have a sizer die that's straight through so if you keep sizing case/sleeves, eventually the sleeves start popping out the top of the die. For some reason, the Bobcat works while the B&D does not. By the time you get to standard .357 Magnum velocities with the B&D, case set-back ties up the gun. But that does not happen with the Bobcat(???) You can load to velocities well beyond regular .357 and the cylinder still turns with no resistence. I don't know why; the case shape is very similiar. The only difference being the neck surronded by the celcon sleeve in the Bobcat as opposed to the neck being supported by the steel cylinder walls in the Bain & Davis. Accuracy is quite good from the Bobcat--the one I have with a 2X Leupold averages 6.5" groups at 100 yds.

Ambrose

OK, I just spent a little time with a screw driver and the Ruger collection. Rocky, you are correct; the flat-top grip frame is marked XR3. However, the 3-screw Single-Six (circa 1969) is marked XR3-RED and the New Model Single-Six is marked, predictably enough, NXR3-RED. I would guess that the earlier Single-Sixes, the flat-gates, etc., would have the XR3 grip frames but it's only a guess since I do not have a flat-gate.

Rocky Raab

Just out of curiousitynessitude (!) where is the mark?

Ambrose

Under the left grip, fairly large, raised capital letters, parallel to the mainspring and between the mainspring and the backstrap (or what would be the backstrap if we were looking at a Colt SA!).

Ambrose

I picked up the new .44 Spl. Flat-top from my dealer today. As you said, Rocky, I like it! The cylinder frame is the same size as the 3-screw .357 in my collection, ie., 1/8" shorter than a standard Blackhawk. Also, the grip frame, which is steel as opposed to the aluminum of the standard Blackhawk, is the same shape as the old XR3. Grips won't interchange without alteration, as you said, but with some modification on the inside of the grips, they could be made to fit. I am thinking of trying to get an extra set of these black checkered grips and fitting them to my old .44 Flat-top that does not have the origional grips. The little gun is somewhat heavy: I get 43 oz. on my old-fashened butter scales, compared to 37 oz. for the 3-screw .357 and 41 oz. for the .44 Flat-top.

I've got an assortment of .44 jacketed bullets and some cast bullets from Lyman moulds #429421 and #429244. An order for brass and a seater die from Midway should be here by the end of the week and firing should commence shortly after that. I think I'll start with Unique and 2400.

Rocky Raab

Let me reveal a powder that I've recently come to seriously like: American Select. It is amazingly clean, measures very well and is almost always on the store shelf.

In my flattop, 6.0 under a 240 cast gets exactly 900 fps with an SD of 8 - and two inch groups at 25. With a 240 plated bullet, it gets 860 fps and similar accuracy.

Ambrose

I've used Unique for middle-of-the-road loads for a lot of years. When I want to heat things up, I'd switch to 2400. I don't think I'll go to "Elmer Keith" hot loads in the Special; I've got .44 magnums for that, so I'll see if I can find some American Select. I'm probably too old to learn but I'm not too old to experiment! Thanks for the tip.