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Sighting in 3006
woodshed87
Member Posts: 25,785
30-06 Springfield Remington Expesss Core-Lockt Sp R30064Factory 180Gr At what Distance Should I Zero to Hunt out at 250 -350- Yrds
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+3" at 100yd will put you 3" low at around 260yd (inside that range simply hold in the center) Past that you should start adding some elevation, but not any more than "cross hair even with top of back" (IOW no air below the cross hair) IOW Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR) sighting.
Your second choice would be to zero at 300yd, than see where it hits at 250 and 300yd and adjust your hold accordingly for those shots.
OK, did some table looking (RCBS Load) +2 3/4" at 100yd, +3 @ 125yd, Zero at 225yd, puts you -3" at 265yd. -6 3/4 @ 300yd and almost 14" low at 350.
A 300yd zero would put you 6.3" high at 165yd, 4" high at 250yd, 6" low at 350yd and 14" low at 400yd
Sight in that way and then remember: Hold on hair, never air.
But for a little closer look at what you are shooting try this:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
Edit:
I had to use a Winchester Power-Point because they don't have a Remington 180 Core-lokt in the dropdown. They are about the same ballisticly.
Edit II:
When you bring up the site, if you think any of the paramaters are different then go ahead and change them. If you'll notice I plugged in 1000 ft. elevation. That's what it is where I'm at. You would no doubt get better ballistics if you were to be shooting 7-8 thousand feet up in the Rockies. Enough to make a difference anyways.
And, keep in mind any ballistics computer is a guide. Not all the factors can always be put in. I recommend you test your rounds/rifle with the information before you take a shot at that longer range.
-good luck
Sighting that high and a medium to smallish deer 200 yards away would mean that you'd shoot over the deer with a center hold, using most of the popular rounds today.
Not to be obstreperous, but "at least four inches high" is fine - as long as you never shoot at a deer closer than 400 yards away. (In most actual real-life hunting scenarios, that would mean quickly turning and running 200 yards away from the deer.)
Sighting that high and a medium to smallish deer 200 yards away would mean that you'd shoot over the deer with a center hold, using most of the popular rounds today.
UUUHHH,... No you won't. You will hit anywhere from centermass up to the backbone. Contrary to popular belief sighting in a little higher doesn't send the bullet sailing off on a trajectory to hit at 1000 yds. I just got done spending over 40 hours on the range this past October, explaining and re-explaining to deer hunters that if you sight in for 300 then at 100 and 200 you simply hold at the bottom of the kill zone. I would constantly hear how if they sighted 1" high at 100 they should be dead on @ 200 and "just a bit low" @ 300. Not hardly a one of them had a clue that you drop about 15" @ 300 from a 100 yd. Zero.
And FWIW, I agree that a 150 gr. bullet would be more optimal here. However, according to calculated drops you would still be about 1 ft. low at 350 and still 5" low @ 300. Just as a round guess I would think that defeats the purpose of the question the OP was trying to solve. Whereas if you sighted in at 4" high you would only be low by 2" and 8" @ 350. That will keep you on hair. Sight in like Rocky said and if you follow his rule, "hold on hair, never on air" then you would have to eliminate the 350 yd. shots.
It's a lot easier to hold a little low on short range shots than a lot high on long range shots.
Perhaps that's why I think of 350 yards as out of range. I worry that some of that invisible stuff called wind will give me a gutshot even with a perfect hold. And in the field, there ARE no perfect holds.
Fair enough, 350 yds. is past the limit you set for yourself. Some people though, like myself, like to push the limit to our full capability. I shot one deer at 470 yds. With one exception all the deer I shot were 150 or more yards out. As far as wind goes, that's why you shoot in it, and know what it does to your bullet. During the winters here twice a month I compete at a 500 yd. match where at 300, unknown distance, 400 and 500 we shoot an animal target (deer, elk, sheep, bear). The idea is to get a visual on where the bullet should be placed. And, in winter conditions, get three kill shots on those animal targets. That means dealing with wind, low light and snow/rain/sleet sometimes.
Granted, shooting paper @ 500 does not raise the ethics question near as much as shooting at game animals @ 500. But, my whole point here is that with practice it's perfectly doable. And you can call that wind, if you shoot in it and see what it does. And FWIW, a perfect hold is the one that gets the shot placed where you wanted it. Yes, there ARE perfect holds while you are out hunting. Knowing your drops and maximizing for them is the first key thing to accomplish.
And, I agree with Rocky, that if you are not proficient at longer ranges, then don't try those shots on animals. Prove to yourself on a range that you are proficient at them.
Target shooters know this. They put out flags to gauge the wind, and every one of them will tell you of many times when the wind blew in opposite directions at different ranges. They'll also tell you that wind always swirls. Hunters don't have the benefit of wind flags, but they ought to have the benefit of sense and judgment.
Any shorter zero will require expert (or high tech) range determination to allow for drop. The old "rule of threes" that a zero 3" high at 100 yards would equip you to shoot out to 300 yards is not quite right. That setting for that load would be on target at 235 yards, only an inch lower at 250, but 6" down at 300 and over a foot low at 350.
So we are seeking a sight-in that keeps the bullet less than six inches above the line of sight, and the maximum range we can shoot with that hold is where the bullet drops six inches below it. A bullet will still be rising above the line of sight past 100 yards, with the top of the arc somewhere between 150 and 175. After that, it drops quicker and quicker, passing six inches below line of sight somewhere beyond that. How far beyond depends on the muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient.
A 30-30 will be six inches low a lot closer than the 30-06 the OP asked about, and a mangleum round will be farther yet. But MOST rounds (and all the ones I consider sane designs) will be six inches low before reaching 300.
The ballistics are indisputable. What we can disagree on are our hunting practices and what we consider reasonable cartridges.
Can a given shooter hit a one-foot target at very long range? Yes - when he and everything else are perfect. Let just ONE thing be less than that, and he will miss, wound or gut-shoot the deer. IN MY OPINION, the man who tries such a thing cares more about his ego than the game animal.
I had my 7mm rem mag sighted in with 150gr pills so high at 100yds, that I was even a hair high at 400yds, but hey, I like the long shots and pass up the short shots. That is why crop damage permits are sooooo much fun. Plucked one at 619yds a few years back, but then again a laser and a Nightforce can do wonderful things[8D]
run a balisitcs table after verifying AVG muzzle velocity and the manufacturer's BC rating of the bullet. Now, go test your point of impact on the target to what the chart states, then adjust the BC of the bullet and continue rerunning the table until it's drops correspond to what you have seen on paper, in REALITY. then, all you have to do is range your target and start clicking[}:)]
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The ballistics are indisputable. What we can disagree on are our hunting practices and what we consider reasonable cartridges.
Can a given shooter hit a one-foot target at very long range? Yes - when he and everything else are perfect. Let just ONE thing be less than that, and he will miss, wound or gut-shoot the deer. IN MY OPINION, the man who tries such a thing cares more about his ego than the game animal.
I would agree with the generality of the your statement regarding ballistics. But, we aren't speaking generalities here. 350 yds. is no "cake" shot. But it is easily doable with practice. FWIW, I have a problem with many of the people that come out to our deer rifle sight in and I wouldn't trust shooting deer @ 100 yds. Do we then draw the line to all hunters that past 100 yds. is too far? Same with taking long shots. You go out, practice and compare your ballistic chart to actual drops. Then make your own ballistics chart with the drops you actually get. See how far the bullet moves in the wind. See what effect humidity has on your shot.
To me what your last line seems to say to me is anybody trying any shot longer than you would try has an ego that's too big to hunt. What about those people that shoot great big racks every year. Or, pay a bunch of money for a trophy hunt? You think they don't have egos?
I think anyone who tries a shot past their capabiltiy, that has been proven to themselves that they CAN do, has an ego problem. But, people shooting within their capabilities do not.
Claiming "I can shoot game at longer range than you can" is purest ego and arrogance, not a display of skill. You are either skilled enough to get closer to game or you aren't. If you are, and shoot at long range anyway, it's ego. If you aren't able to get close, you are either a poor hunter or (if you honor the game animal) you simply do not shoot. No matter how you rationalize it, taking pot shots at a game animal from a half mile away is not hunting, it's something else entirely.
Hunting ought not be about how big a rack you got, or how far away you shot it. Hunting is the pursuit of a magnificent creature. Pursuit, please note. It does not necessarily include capture. You aren't "entitled" to a trophy or even an animal at all just because you buy a license or hire a guide. Or because you can spot one way the hell out there.
and when the rifle I use to harvest a deer at 619yds, is the same rifle that I use in 600yd benchrest matches, and am shooting it out of the same mechanical front rest and rear bags that I use in the 600yd match, it is pretty much a done deal.
wind is not a factor here, especially in the summer when we shoot crop permits. It is dead clam and hotter than hell out in that field. Since the shots are long, we use a shooting bench with all the benchrest trimmings to help make it a surgical harvest.
My love of longrange has nothing to do with ego, and everything to do with the great feeling of making dead-on shots over the long haul. Those who have never made those long shots, or even tried their hand on paper at distance, will never understand the feeling of satisfaction that comes with tight groups at extended ranges.
short range shots just don't excite me anymore, unless in a treestand in the woods for meat. A 100yd or even 200yd shot is just ho-humm, boring.
JustC, the readers can judge whether your claims rise from ego or not. I have.
To those other readers, thanks for your patience, and apologies if you were bored. I hope the differing views presented allow you to form a thoughtful opinion of your own.
I Found It all To be Very Interesting Thanks To all ...[^]
it's always interesting, thats why I leave them up[;)]
here is an example of proving a drop chart after inserting the MV, bullet BC, bullet weight, etc
Notice the first 2 impacts at the bottom? Those are with no elevation dialed in, just aiming at the bullseye.
now, after measuring REAL WORLD drop, we then refer to the chart. Voila, they are almost identical (this was NOT the first version of this drop chart). I use the 2MOA holdover marks in the reticle and when placing the center of the reticle back on the bullseye, the 2nd holdover stadia (4MOA) meets perfectly with the first impact. Soooo, I dial in the 4MOA the chart says and the aim again, at the bullseye, and here is the result
disclaimer: This is NOT a factory rifle, nor factory ammo. Target was lasered at 408yds with a Leica 1200LRF
As I said, REALITY is the only way to test POI over distance, a chart from some book is the wrong way to go about it. You MUST prove your load in YOUR rifle at real world distances, not in a lab.
I think you are taking this ego thing down a slippery slope here. If the ego thing becomes a mudslinger then there's some folks that just won't go because they know they aren't going to get a closer shot. Some people know their ballistics well enough to go a lot farther than what we've talked about here. Most of the ones I know, also know when they aren't capable of taking those longer shots. And some who want to take those shots and may never be ready.
But, I think you are the one here pressing his ego. By flatly stating what we do is egotistical, yet we all know people who go out and hunt deer (and other game), and I wouldn't trust them shooting @ 100 yds. Yet you insist on imposing your will on those posters here who reach out long range and those who attempt to become good shooters at those extended ranges.
woodshed87,
I hope you learn two things here.
1. practice, practice, practice when it comes to shooting where and how you want to shoot.
2. Just because someone doesn't like the way you do something, or want to do something, doesn't mean you have to stop and do it their way. Refer to #1 and learn to do it well and drive on!
I am fortunate enough to be able to take a round out of my reloading press, literally spin the chair around and shoot out to 200yds over a chrono. To shoot out to 700yds I have to walk out of the kitchen to the bench on the deck. We get to shoot everyday here. As far as hunting goes I never bought into the "hold on hair" line. I learned long ago to shoot much tighter. 99% of my whitetail kills are both lungs and heart. All from prone with bipod. If that shot does not present then I just have to wait or pass. All 7 of my children had to be able to hit a bowling pin at 200yds every shot before they could hunt. Just hitting an animal (12") kill zone is a bit sloppy in my opinion. I pass up a lot of shots. But I also limit on deer every year. I limit myself to about 300 with the .243 and about 650 with the 7mag. Just an aside, I haven't had an animal travel more than 50yds in the last 25 years. I'm a crappy tracker and I'd rather eat the deer than chase it around three counties.