In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
do we underload the 30-06?
nemesisenforcer
Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
So, in looking at the load data in my reloading manuals, I noticed something interesting: the pressure on max loads on the 30-06 are well under 60,000psi or right at 60,000psi for all bullet weights and powders.
The 270 win. and 25-06 (both based on the 30-06 case) on the other hand have chamber pressures that run much higher: 62,000psi, even 63,000 and some just shy of 64.
So, being that gun manufacturers simply rechamber/barrel their actions between the 3 above mentioned calibers, it stands to reason that any rifle capable of withstanding 60,000+psi in either the 270 or 25-06 should be able to it withstand it in the '06, que non?
I bring this up because a friend of mine routinely "overloads" his 30-06 to match the higher pressures found in the 2 cousins of the '06 and gets concomitant increases in velocity with no adverse effects thus far.
What say ye?
The 270 win. and 25-06 (both based on the 30-06 case) on the other hand have chamber pressures that run much higher: 62,000psi, even 63,000 and some just shy of 64.
So, being that gun manufacturers simply rechamber/barrel their actions between the 3 above mentioned calibers, it stands to reason that any rifle capable of withstanding 60,000+psi in either the 270 or 25-06 should be able to it withstand it in the '06, que non?
I bring this up because a friend of mine routinely "overloads" his 30-06 to match the higher pressures found in the 2 cousins of the '06 and gets concomitant increases in velocity with no adverse effects thus far.
What say ye?
Comments
For something like a modern Remington 700, I'd not worry about overloading the 06 a little. In fact some companies make 'light magnums' to capitalize on this.
But as a practical matter, rarely do I find max end loads- to say nothing of over max- to be the most accurate load for a given powder/bullet combo. So it's academic really in most cases. Nor is the extra little performance going to matter. As loaded the 06 will still slap down anything on 4 legs if you do your part, why go one step beyond?
My only response would be that if you wanted to improve the velocity and energy in the 30-06, why not move up to one of the 300 magnums.
60,000 PSI is good enough for some rifles approaching 100 years old.
60,000 PSI is a good safe pressure that takes the variables of weather, dirt, heat and moisture into account and still operate safely.
Some things just don't need improved, the 22LR, 38sp, 30-06 and 45ACP come to mind, they work fine just as they are.
If they want more horsepower, get a 300 Win Mag. There is no need to push the envelope with any cartridge, just get one to fit the need.
I take the long range shooting approach to this. Which will mirror what most have said above. If I want more power to shoot longer ranges I'm going to need more accuracy. Right? I mean technically if a bullet/rifle/load combination will shoot 1.5" at 100 that would mean 7.5" at 500. So, I load little hotter to get that little extra oomph to get me the "required energy" I think I need to kill something at 500. Problem is, now the gun shoots 2.0" @ 100, which translates to 10" @ 500. If that's your 'kill zone' you just became very marginal. Not to mention those are perfect conditions. You're not taking a benchrest rifle up the mountain you're taking a hunting rifle. Any slip or undesirable condition you just went out of the kill zone.
Edit:
As long as you are staying within your rifle's accuracy limitations load it to that. If you need more oomph and want to maintain accuracy them move up to a bigger rifle. I'm not of the personal opinion that you specifically need to limit the 30-06 in a modern rifle when two other cases based specifically off of it are shooting 5k psi higher.
The question was more academic than anything. I have no need of anything bigger than what I have now (an '06 and a 7 Rem Mag) but was just wondering for wondering's sake, that's all.
But, as an intellectual retort to those advocating "calibering up" I say this: why caliber up if I can get similar performance out of a rifle I already have that is just underloaded?
I'm sure the 30-06 can be pushed to much higher levels in modern rifles, however the manufacturers must abide with the 100+ year old SAAMI specs due to 100+ year old rifles still in use and the possible resulting liability.
Rifles are not made of cheese; they do not get stronger with age.
If you wish to get to 65K psi IN A MODERN RIFLE, then load for it. HOWEVER, keep in mind that 60K psi is getting very close to top end loads. Much further, and you are venturing into dark waters. A sticky bolt lift means you are 10K psi past where you should have stopped in the first place.
just my input.....dont do what I do cause you read it here!!!
considering that the 300RUM is made to operate at 56K psi, I don't think the 30-06 is disadvantaged at 60K psi. The 300RUM rifles are modern, and many that use the 30-06 are 100yrs old, so you must keep that in mind.
If you wish to get to 65K psi IN A MODERN RIFLE, then load for it. HOWEVER, keep in mind that 60K psi is getting very close to top end loads. Much further, and you are venturing into dark waters. A sticky bolt lift means you are 10K psi past where you should have stopped in the first place.
There is a bit of an axiom to this also regarding the 100+ year old round. You can get better velocities using the right powder for it without exceeding pressure limits. You just use more burn time with the chosen powder giving more push time on the bullet and then you have your velocity. Again, without exceeding pressure limitations.
Like I said, I don't overload it anyway, as the listed max loads are more than sufficient for my purposes.
This was just an academic discussion more than anything else brought on by simple curiosity.
Historical souces confirm that the ammo for the 1903 was a bit stiffer then for the M1 Garand. The Garand was intentionally 'light-loaded' for several reasons, 1.) to lessen wear on the recoil system, esp. the bolt-carrier banging to the limits of it travel would cause problems in real short-order on the battle field. 2.) Even tho the gas piston design allowed for a lot of fouling and would still function, just a small reduction in the size of the charge let the GI fire several hundred MORE rounds then when firing the original 03 loads. Even today, those who shoot the Garand competitively, or for sport will tell you that the best way to ruin one is to 'load 'er up'. A couple of my 'pet' loads for 30-06 include 180-200gr bullets with 7828 SSC powder that are pretty stout, but not excessive. The 30-06 is a wonderfully versitile cartridge, but unlike many other calibers, the type of platform in use should play a large role in determining the 'stoutness' of the load....just sayin.
I think that's good advice for any round that's chambered in both autos and bolt guns. I load "light" for my FAL and pack 'em tight for my buddy's 308.
Historical souces confirm that the ammo for the 1903 was a bit stiffer then for the M1 Garand. The Garand was intentionally 'light-loaded' for several reasons, 1.) to lessen wear on the recoil system, esp. the bolt-carrier banging to the limits of it travel would cause problems in real short-order on the battle field. 2.) Even tho the gas piston design allowed for a lot of fouling and would still function, just a small reduction in the size of the charge let the GI fire several hundred MORE rounds then when firing the original 03 loads. Even today, those who shoot the Garand competitively, or for sport will tell you that the best way to ruin one is to 'load 'er up'. A couple of my 'pet' loads for 30-06 include 180-200gr bullets with 7828 SSC powder that are pretty stout, but not excessive. The 30-06 is a wonderfully versitile cartridge, but unlike many other calibers, the type of platform in use should play a large role in determining the 'stoutness' of the load....just sayin.
I will say that those loads may be fine a bolt gun. But, one other factor you have to pay strict attention to is loading too slow of a powder in the M1 Garand, or any other gas operated rifle for that matter. 7878ssc is way too slow for the Garand. The pressure will be too high down as far as the gas port. Now, with some rifles you can adjust the gas piston to eliminate some of that. I was of the understanding you can with an M1A, but not an M1.
also, my origninal post staed that the 300RUM was designed to operate at 56K psi, but I mis-typed, I meant 65K psi. Just in case anyone caught that mistake.
That is about 3.3% and 6.6% higher, respectively.
The rule of thumb is that you can get an increase in velocity proportional to the half the increase in pressure IF EVERYTHING ELSE IS JUST RIGHT. That is 50-100 fps at best. Probably less with common powders.
[/quote]
If you re-read my post a little closer you will notice that I said "one of my pet loads for the 30-06" NOT anything about a pet load for the garand. Not only is 7828 to slow it builds up way to much pressure and will throw the bolt/operating rod grouping to the limits of it travel with such force that one may end up wearing it in his forehead. I can take critizism as well as the next guy but....do not correct me for something that is YOUR mistake in interpeting. I may not post here a lot, but do not mistake that in any way for ignorance on which I speak. When I write something as fact...it is fact. When I'm not sure.. I say so, and I also ask questions from time to time as I know I do not know it all....but what I do know...I do know well. And by the way; of course the pet load in question is for a bolt gun...duhhh!
Sandman can also read my post in 'reloading accidents' to find out I don't know it all, and have a laugh at my expense, and he can also read my question in my post in the '30-06 pet loads' post,(just to prove that I have asked questions here also..check dates) if he thinks he has an answer...well I'm open to suggestions as no one else has posted any responses. But working up my own loads used to be half the fun, but when you working up a little bit of a bucky 30-06 load at my age any avoidence of a sore shoulder is a good thing. I've already enjoyed all the pain in one lifetime I can stand.
Relax. My mistake. My apologies. I did misinterpret that you were responding to an M1 reference. No laughing at your expense unless you say so. Agreed?[8D]
Edit:
I do say though that while you, norgexxx, understand not to load an M1 Garand with 7878ssc powder. Other readers who might have mistook your post as I did would maybe like the reminder that 7878ssc is too slow of a powder to use in an M1 Garand. My apology stands for not understanding but the basis of my statement does not change.