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Double charge?

JustjumpJustjump Member Posts: 644 ✭✭✭✭
edited March 2011 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
Well after decades of handloading it finally happened and I don't know how.
.45 ACP 200g cast SW 5.9g 231 CCI LP We shoot thousands and thousands of this load in several guns. What makes this even worse is that it happened to my wife. We are firm believers in glasses and we now know why. She had several hot particulate penetrations on the right side of her face. It was immediately apparent something was wrong. Though in obvious pain she safetied the weapon (mag wouldn't drop) and set it down. I am assuming it was double charged. I am positive there was no barrel obstruction and it was the first round of the day. The pic is the round in the chamber and the top one out of the mag that got pushed back. Gun initial assessment is pretty good. Lost the slide lock safety plunger but other than that all seems OK will check tolerances later. Anyone know if a kimber plunger assembly will stake to a Colt 1991a1 gvt series 80?

DSC_0005.jpg
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Comments

  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello I have loaded over 300,000 rounds of 45 ACP had 2 Problem rounds. Both with same load in same brand case and same bullet. This is what I found when I decided to pull bullets on remaining rounds . I had loaded 400 rounds of 185 grain Nosler over 4.3 grains of VV 310 . in once fired TZZ Match Brass from Camp Perry DCM/CMP matches. because of the cost of Nosler bullets I made this ammo taking extra pains to make it the best 50 yard ammo I could. Tested great on Ransom rest and during state championship centerfire slow fire the second target Kaboom blows the grips off Magazine base plate and spring as well as follower and loaded rounds. Top round looked just like yours. I put gun away and got our Spare gun finished match with my 25 yard loads in WCC Match brass. I put ammo away and 3or 4 years later shot a match on the Beach in 40 MPH wind got out this ammo for some reason and third round Kaboom same thing [:(!][V] I AM a slow learner I got home and when to pull all the bullets to save them . Put first round in bullet puller and gave it a good smack bullet jumped out with one smack. Second bullet hit puller little softer. bullet jumped out[?]third bullet hit puller in the palm of my hand bullet jumped out WTH[:0] Took a full box and with all nose up pushed my finger on nose of bullets. Have of them would push down with less then one pound of pressure . Now to my point of this long winded story. The case wall thickness of TZZ "as well as Remington and Remington UMC " is MUCH thinner then WCC Match and the noslers were .451 not .452 like my lead loads. End results the bullet would push back into the case when it would hit the feed ramp. This would raise pressure to a point that the case would give away and do exactly what your loads did. . In 40+ years of Match shooting I have seen a number of Double charges in other peoples gun . Believe me I feel a Double charge would have and Bulged the barrel and slide the gun would be ruined. Yes pull the bullets and be careful on your loading in the future BUT also check all loaded ammo to make sure you can't push bullet deeper with your finger. "PRAISE THE HARD-BALL GUN"
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  • JustjumpJustjump Member Posts: 644 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Perry, thank you very much!!! Have about 250 rds left from that session. We will do some measure and check in the morning. I use a lot of mixed brass and a lot is TZZ but this one was a federal I believe. I would now concur that it probably was not a double charge. Slide and barrel are showing no damage at all. Grips are also fine. Wife seems to be OK also [;)]
    SHe wants it fixed quickly so she can get back to it.
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  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Glad no one was seriously hurt. It there a reason to be loading so hot? Must be in the +P area. Not a standard charge when i looked at load data on Hodgdons web site. [:)]
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've loaded about 10,000 200gr. 45,s and NEVER loaded over 5.0grs. of 231 [;)]
    According to Winchester the max for it is 5.6grs. with the 200LSWC bullet
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dcs shooters
    I've loaded about 10,000 200gr. 45,s and NEVER loaded over 5.0grs. of 231 [;)]
    According to Winchester the max for it is 5.6grs. with the 200LSWC bullet


    +1 on that statement. I do not know exactly what the Lyman manual says without looking. However, my load is 5.2 with HP-31 or W231 with a 200 grain bullet. My 230 grain lead round nose load is 4.8 grains. Hodgdon calls for 5.6 and 5.3 as the max load for both of those loads.
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  • JustjumpJustjump Member Posts: 644 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not sure what you guys are looking at but the lyman manual lists 5.4 on the low side with 6.1 max. I checked my data and they are running over the chrono right at 878 to 892 fps should be just under 16300 C.U.P.
    An older Hornady book lists it starting at 5.3 to 6.2 max 5.9 at 900 which I am just under.
    The speer manual says that is loading to 800fps and that it is not a max load.

    I am convinced that it was not overcharged and was in fact a bullet pushed back due to light case mouth tension. I found 1 more like that in the batch. It is now a step to press on them as I put the loaded rounds into the box.

    I went back and checked even more of my old manuals and I have found 2 that have the lower loads. For the sake of discussion, I will try some of the under 5g loads. I'm curious if the guns will cycle at 700fps or less without changing the springs
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Check the hodgdon website out, they have load data on their website.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I loaded a lot of 231 at 4.0 grains with a 200SWC for bullseye shooting many years ago. For a stiffer load I went to 5.0 to duplicate ball ammo with the 200SWC. Your load seems very hot for every day shooting.

    Have you chrono'd it?
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  • JustjumpJustjump Member Posts: 644 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bpost
    I loaded a lot of 231 at 4.0 grains with a 200SWC for bullseye shooting many years ago. For a stiffer load I went to 5.0 to duplicate ball ammo with the 200SWC. Your load seems very hot for every day shooting.
    Have you chrono'd it?


    Just curious, in the bullseye gun aren't you running a 14 or 15lb spring?? I'll find out this weekend if any of my 45's will even cycle a 4g load. It could happen...
    Yes they are chrono'd at 878 to 892fps No leading...
    Kimbers and colts all running 18 1/2 lb wolf springs.
    This is the first failure of this type in well over 50,000 rounds over 30 years. Yes I know its all there, but well within parameters of many manuals. If you'll notice many manuals only show the load to 800fps as a standard and have a notation that says they are not max loads (speer etc.) These are under 16300 C.U.P.
    For the sake of education I will try the loads listed by others in at least 4 semi-autos and a couple revolvers, all over a chrono and post the results.
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  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf SAAMI lists the standard loaded pressure at 21,000 PSI , with the +P at 23,000 PSI. All data is for jacketed loads, showing the fps. Starline makes +P brass that is heaver in the head/web area. I agree that bullet setback is the main problem, but have to wonder if the brass would still have ruptured using 5.6gr of 231?. Interesting. Thank you for posting the photo.
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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  • noyljnoylj Member Posts: 172 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The following is my compiled data from manuals and Handloader magazine over the past 30 years. It includes some "favorite" loads. 5.6gn is a bit warm, but, as shown, there is a LOT of variance between barrels.
    I don't recommend any one shoot any rounds based on this--it is just for interest.
    .45 ACP
    Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Start/Max Power Factor COL
    L-SWC 195 231/HP38 3.9 642 Start 125
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.0 694 Start/Accurate 139
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.1 Several small groups 0
    Lead 200 231/HP38 4.4 748 Start 150
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.4 771 Start 154 1.225
    Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.5 719 Start 144
    Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.5 808 Start/Accurate 162
    swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.6 739 Start/Accurate 148 1.185
    swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.8 650 4.8-5.3gn 130
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 4.8 800 Start 160
    Lead 200 231/HP38 4.8 804 Start 161
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 Favorite
    swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 803 Max 161 1.185
    Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 811 Max 162
    Cast L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.0 892 Max 178
    RCBS #45-201K SWC 201 231/HP38 5.0 800 161
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.1 Target 0 1.224
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.2 850 Max/Favorite 170 1.250
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.2 739 Start 148
    L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 5.2 800 Start 160
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.2
    Hdy L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.3 Accurate
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.3 Target-Sev. small groups 0
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.4 Favorite 0
    H&G68 L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 Bullseye pet load 1.250
    L-SWC, L-RN 200 231/HP38 5.5 910 Max 182
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 841 168 1.263
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.5 850 170
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.6 914 Max 183 1.225
    L-SWC 195 231/HP38 5.7 962 Max 188
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 5.9 920 184 1.250
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 850 Hardball load 170 1.160
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.0 987 Max 197
    RCBS #45-201K SWC 201 231/HP38 6.0 955 192
    swaged L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.1 850 Max 170
    L-SWC 200 231/HP38 6.5 923 Max 185
    L-SWC, L-C/T 200 231/HP38 6.5 950 Max 190
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