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.223 Help

I have a Rem. 700 Varmit in .223. it already shoots sub MOA at 200 yards with Hornady 55 grain factory loads. But I would like to go to a heavier bullet and I have a 1-14 twist. Can someone tell me the fastest I can reasonably push a 75 grain bullet in .223? I have very little reloading experiance but I have some equipment.

Comments

  • cbyerlycbyerly Member Posts: 703 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is highly unlikely that your barrel will stabilize bullets heavier than the 55 grain. You would need at least a 1/9 twist for heavier bullets.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,193 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Very unlikely that your 1/14 twist barrel will stabilize that long of a bullet at .223 velocities.

    My 1/14 twist 22-250 won't stabilize 65gr Sierras at much higher speeds.
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There is NO CHANCE that your 14 twist barrel will handle 75 grain bullets. It MIGHT do ok with 60 grain bullets but I would not count on it.
    Sierra makes a 63 grain semi-spitzer and Speer a 70 grain roundnose meant for 12-14 twist varmint rifles but I don't see any advantage to them over a good 50-55 grain spitzer that the gun was made for.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    check out this website, scroll down a little bit and it gives you an idea how many grains u can throw in your 1:14" twist barrel.

    http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

    States 55 gr will be the best it can stabilize.

    -JD
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 11,480 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My Howa 223 1/12(?) won't stabilize anything over 60 grains and the 60's aren't shooting very well. I tried some 69 BTHP factory ammo in the Howa and got 3"+ groups.
    I've used some Speer 70 grain semispitzers in a Remington 223 barrel at max load and got minute of deer groups which was adequate for the purpose.
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Aren't most 223's equiped with 1-9 or 1-8 twist barrels?
  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,969
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bambambam
    Aren't most 223's equiped with 1-9 or 1-8 twist barrels?


    Ar-15,s are.


    Most bolt guns are 1/12.

    It's odd to have a Rem. 700 with a 1/14 twist, unless it is a old one. That's what they first came out with.


    We put a Douglas 1/8 barrel on my Rem 700. It loves 69&75gr Sierra,s.
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    new barrel with tighter twist is the only option
  • WinMikeWinMike Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Most bolt guns are 1/12.
    It's odd to have a Rem. 700 with a 1/14 twist, unless it is a old one. That's what they first came out with.

    I believe DCS is correct: when .223 was first chambered, Remington used barrels from their highly successful (and very accurate) .222 Rem. Wasn't long before they realized the .223 was suitable for heavier bullets, and the industry standard became 1-12" twist.
  • McQuick21McQuick21 Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well I just realized that I don't have a 1/14 I have a 1/12 twist I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway bear with me on this theory and keep in mind I have very little reloading experience but I know a little about physics and have no time these days to do anything but work. A 40gn bullet in a 1/12 spins faster because of its higher velocity. A heavier bullet is more stable. So if you push the heavier bullet the same velocity as the lighter bullet shouldn't it stabilize? or is the problem you cant push the heavier bullet that fast?
  • McQuick21McQuick21 Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oh and thanks for all the info and I love your quotes.
  • deerslayer3deerslayer3 Member Posts: 23 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You are correct. If you have two loads with equal powder the heavy bullet travels at a slower rate of speed.
    Also, a heavier bullet when compared to a lighter bullet of the same caliber is generally some stabile in flight because the wind drift is less. A heavy bullet is harder for the wind to push from its path because it's mass is greater.
    As a general assumption, a light bullet needs less twist than a heavy one to stabilize. This is theoretical because sometimes a specific gun will defy the odds of probability when a specific bullet is used that was not intended. Sometimes the gun will shoot a bullet that the rifles twist was not intended for.


    quote:Originally posted by McQuick21
    Well I just realized that I don't have a 1/14 I have a 1/12 twist I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway bear with me on this theory and keep in mind I have very little reloading experience but I know a little about physics and have no time these days to do anything but work. A 40gn bullet in a 1/12 spins faster because of its higher velocity. A heavier bullet is more stable. So if you push the heavier bullet the same velocity as the lighter bullet shouldn't it stabilize? or is the problem you cant push the heavier bullet that fast?
  • McQuick21McQuick21 Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What if the heavier bullet had more powder to increase its velocity to that of the lighter bullet? It would be spinning the same amount (i.e. RPM's)and being heavier should be as stable or more stable, in theory. If someone has a chance to test this theory before I do please be my guest. I will test it as soon as I can but that may be next year. Thanks

    P.S. I also have a 26" barrel.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 10,891 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First, it is actually length of the bullet not weight that determines what twist is needed.

    Second, to get a heavier (longer) bullet fast enough to stabilize in a twist meant for shorter bullets, you'd have to grossly exceed the maximum pressures allowed. More powder with heavier bullets will have consequences you would not like.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • McQuick21McQuick21 Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, uncle. Just trying to think outside the box but no doupt I need to see what is inside it first. But then again thats why I asked people that had been there.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,576 ******
    edited November -1
    McQuick21,

    This is a very short tutorial regarding twist rate and bullet length. Easy to understand and it does expand on the concept of twist and bullet length:

    http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July01.htm

    When discussing twist rate with regard to a bullet's weight, you also need to state the manufacturer since a 75 grain Speer SP is shorter than a 75 grain A-MAX.

    Best.
  • McQuick21McQuick21 Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thats a beautiful rifle. Only 1 thing wrong with it, the bolt is on the wrong side. LOL
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 10,891 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm honored by the avuncular sobriquet.

    I suppose it is normal for the young to believe they are plowing new ground when in fact they are turning soil that has been tilled for eons. The fact is that the 223 Rem was designed around bullets of 55 grains or so. Both the case capacity and twist rates are optimized for such bullets. Believe it or not, the ballistic engineers who created it knew what they were doing.

    The current heavy bullet/fast twist/long range fad will inevitably fade into dust as surely as "California" stock design. (And if that is a new term for you, take it as evidence that such things do pass into utter oblivion.)

    Load and shoot your rifle as it was designed to be loaded and shot. It will be happy, and so will you.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • WinMikeWinMike Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree with Rocky about 55 gr. being optimum for the .223, but alas, I doubt "....the current heavy bullet/fast twist/long range fad will inevitably fade into dust..."

    Because the military has anointed the 69-78 gr./1-9" twist in the black rifle, with the consequent proliferation of similar firearms on the civilian market, many shooters in the generations younger to me consider any .223 under-served by anything below 65 gr. (there's 100 gr. loadings, for crying out loud!).

    Yeah, I know the 5.56x45mm NATO is considered a different caliber by some, but in practice, almost everyone considers them the same. There are 2 pages of 5.56x45 ammo in the Midway catalog, but 16 pages of .223 ammo. Many of those .223 are obviously not suited for any twist slower than 1-10".

    Alas, old codgers like me (I'm not nice enough to be avuncular) just keep shooting many, many 45-55 gr. bullets into one tiny hole, using our "old fashioned" 1-12" twists.
  • deerslayer3deerslayer3 Member Posts: 23 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    RR,
    I was trying to give an example of powder,weight, and twist relationship keeping it as basic as posible. I never intended for the OP to load a round with the same powder for both bullets. Thank you for elaborating.
    Also two bullets of same diameter will be shorter or longer as weight goes up and down. This correlates to weight and twist. Yes bullets that are longer need more twist, because the are heavier. I guess I assumed that everyone knew this.

    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    First, it is actually length of the bullet not weight that determines what twist is needed.

    Second, to get a heavier (longer) bullet fast enough to stabilize in a twist meant for shorter bullets, you'd have to grossly exceed the maximum pressures allowed. More powder with heavier bullets will have consequences you would not like.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,193 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by WinMike
    I agree with Rocky about 55 gr. being optimum for the .223, but alas, I doubt "....the current heavy bullet/fast twist/long range fad will inevitably fade into dust..."

    Because the military has anointed the 69-78 gr./1-9" twist in the black rifle, with the consequent proliferation of similar firearms on the civilian market, many shooters in the generations younger to me consider any .223 under-served by anything below 65 gr. (there's 100 gr. loadings, for crying out loud!).

    Yeah, I know the 5.56x45mm NATO is considered a different caliber by some, but in practice, almost everyone considers them the same. There are 2 pages of 5.56x45 ammo in the Midway catalog, but 16 pages of .223 ammo. Many of those .223 are obviously not suited for any twist slower than 1-10".

    Alas, old codgers like me (I'm not nice enough to be avuncular) just keep shooting many, many 45-55 gr. bullets into one tiny hole, using our "old fashioned" 1-12" twists.


    Just so you know....the standard military load is 62gr in a 1/7" twist barrel.
  • WinMikeWinMike Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just so you know....the standard military load is 62gr in a 1/7" twist barrel.

    Thanks....I've sort of lost touch....my grunt rifle was just after they made the switch from M-1 to M-14. Told you I was an old codger.....
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    My Howa 223 1/12(?) won't stabilize anything over 60 grains and the 60's aren't shooting very well. I tried some 69 BTHP factory ammo in the Howa and got 3"+ groups.
    I've used some Speer 70 grain semispitzers in a Remington 223 barrel at max load and got minute of deer groups which was adequate for the purpose.


    Same experience here with the Howa and a Remington 700 223! I don't remember the twist rate of the Rem, but the rifle is a mid to later 90's and it will group the speer 70g bullets excellent and the 60g nosler partitions, but the Howa don't like anything above 50g. 60's and 70's are erratic for accuracy, like 2 to 3 inchs groups at 100 yards vs 1 inch or less average for the 50 and 45 gr bullets and this is for a glass bedded gun being shot from a benchrest with a 12x scope.

    The rem will shoot nickels and dimes all day long and has good accuracy with 45-70 gr bullets when I use the powder that it likes/per the bullet size!
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by McQuick21
    I have a Rem. 700 Varmit in .223. it already shoots sub MOA at 200 yards with Hornady 55 grain factory loads. But I would like to go to a heavier bullet and I have a 1-14 twist. Can someone tell me the fastest I can reasonably push a 75 grain bullet in .223? I have very little reloading experiance but I have some equipment.


    55 gr. is the heaviest you can stabilize out of that twist.

    edit:

    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    I'm honored by the avuncular sobriquet.

    I suppose it is normal for the young to believe they are plowing new ground when in fact they are turning soil that has been tilled for eons. The fact is that the 223 Rem was designed around bullets of 55 grains or so. Both the case capacity and twist rates are optimized for such bullets. Believe it or not, the ballistic engineers who created it knew what they were doing.

    The current heavy bullet/fast twist/long range fad will inevitably fade into dust as surely as "California" stock design. (And if that is a new term for you, take it as evidence that such things do pass into utter oblivion.)

    Load and shoot your rifle as it was designed to be loaded and shot. It will be happy, and so will you.


    I'll disagree because I'm pretty sure the engineers who designed the whole 5.56 (and then the .223) didn't have any clue as to the viability of a 75 gr. round. It's certainly not going to fade into dust as bullet sales are twice for 75 gr. bullets than what they are for 55's. There is such a surplus of 55's right now you can get them for less than $.07 a bullet.

    Besides, try getting a 55 gr. bullet accurately to 1k. You can do it a lot better (not the best mind you) with the 75/80 gr. bullets.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 10,891 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Who in the bleeding hell would want to shoot a .223 at 1000 yards unless they are out of their minds to begin with? It is ludicrous.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    I guess I'm out of my bleeding mind...along with the Army and Marine marksmanship units.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,193 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    Who in the bleeding hell would want to shoot a .223 at 1000 yards unless they are out of their minds to begin with? It is ludicrous.


    People that like to do things just to see if they can be done....and done well.

    I don't understand why people want to go from 0 mph to 340 mph in 1/4 mile but....there they are.
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    bullet weight, is mostly dependant on bullet length. Given a specific dia, the bullet length can only vary a by a small amount, in order to be the same weight. It is the lenght of the the BEARING SURFACE that makes the difference.

    VLD pills have a long bearing surface, and therefore, need a faster twist.

    as far as a 223 at 1000yds, it has been done. The military states the effective range of the .308 at somewhere aroung 800yds, but clean kills have been recorded far beyond that.
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wasn't there something on TV recently about a US sniper with a .308 in Bagdad or similar place, downing a guy with a rifle making pock shots at our men? I think it was on the history channel and the show was about snipers and the longest shots recorded.
    They also showed the sniper from Vietnam who killed 30-40 guys by a river close range. This man I think also had the most kills in Vietnam too?


    quote:Originally posted by JustC
    bullet weight, is mostly dependant on bullet length. Given a specific dia, the bullet length can only vary a by a small amount, in order to be the same weight. It is the lenght of the the BEARING SURFACE that makes the difference.

    VLD pills have a long bearing surface, and therefore, need a faster twist.

    as far as a 223 at 1000yds, it has been done. The military states the effective range of the .308 at somewhere aroung 800yds, but clean kills have been recorded far beyond that.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bambambam
    Wasn't there something on TV recently about a US sniper with a .308 in Bagdad or similar place, downing a guy with a rifle making pock shots at our men? I think it was on the history channel and the show was about snipers and the longest shots recorded.
    They also showed the sniper from Vietnam who killed 30-40 guys by a river close range. This man I think also had the most kills in Vietnam too?


    quote:Originally posted by JustC
    bullet weight, is mostly dependant on bullet length. Given a specific dia, the bullet length can only vary a by a small amount, in order to be the same weight. It is the lenght of the the BEARING SURFACE that makes the difference.

    VLD pills have a long bearing surface, and therefore, need a faster twist.

    as far as a 223 at 1000yds, it has been done. The military states the effective range of the .308 at somewhere aroung 800yds, but clean kills have been recorded far beyond that.



    You asked this: Wasn't there something on TV recently about a US sniper with a .308 in Bagdad or similar place, downing a guy with a rifle making pock shots at our men?

    I think that was Slyvester Stallone and or Arnold Swartzenager on TV shooting them bad guys?[}:)][;)]
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 10,891 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just because somebody does like something doesn't make it right or smart, either.

    The .223 simply doesn't have the case capacity to launch heavy bullets fast enough to take advantage of whatever benefits you think a heavy bullet has. The principle of diminishing returns rears its head here, and the .223 is best with bullets of about 60 grains and less.

    You are free to try anything you like. If a 150-gr .22-caliber bullet out of the .22 Short case with a twist of one turn per inch tingles your leg, go for it. But don't try to convince anybody that it is the answer to everything. Or anything.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    Rocky,

    As usual, you want to have it your way and no one else has theirs. It is perfectly okay to shoot a .223 to 1k. If shooting anything is smart then shooting a .223 to 1k is no different. Is it stupid to shoot a .308 to 1k when you can use a .260? I would say first it depends on the experience of the shooter. Just because the .260 is a wind cheater doesn't mean someone who gets on one will know how much wind to shoot. Therefore it may or may not be able to beat a .223 or .308. For just shooting the .223 to 1k, I can't see any reason what so ever that it's stupid. No more stupid than shooting any other cartridge to 1k.

    And, since you don't feel like using your brain, use the 60 gr's to 1k. See how far that gets you. I have less success using 55/60 gr. Amax's to 1k than I do 70-80 gr. bullets that are made to fly long distance well.

    Again, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong or stupid. I think you are clearly showing your ignorance and lack of an open mind here.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 10,891 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My mind is open. I did say you are free to do anything you like, did I not? Nor have I abused you or anyone else. I said that the practice of shooting a .223 at 1,000 yards is ludicrous.

    Will bullets from that rifle go that far? Heck yes. Most centerfire rifles can shoot a bullet for several miles. That doesn't make "miles" a practical range.

    As you yourself say, "It is no more stupid than shooting any other cartridge to 1k." And I agree wholeheartedly, because shooting to 1,000 yards IS stupid. (We are not talking military use here. We are talking about civilian shooting.) Target competition to 1,000 yards is done, but it is very much a minor sport. And those who do it don't use many .223s.

    Finally, you do seem very insistent on having this YOUR way.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • JustCJustC Member, Moderator Posts: 16,036 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bambambam
    Wasn't there something on TV recently about a US sniper with a .308 in Bagdad or similar place, downing a guy with a rifle making pock shots at our men? I think it was on the history channel and the show was about snipers and the longest shots recorded.
    They also showed the sniper from Vietnam who killed 30-40 guys by a river close range. This man I think also had the most kills in Vietnam too?


    quote:Originally posted by JustC
    bullet weight, is mostly dependant on bullet length. Given a specific dia, the bullet length can only vary a by a small amount, in order to be the same weight. It is the lenght of the the BEARING SURFACE that makes the difference.

    VLD pills have a long bearing surface, and therefore, need a faster twist.

    as far as a 223 at 1000yds, it has been done. The military states the effective range of the .308 at somewhere aroung 800yds, but clean kills have been recorded far beyond that.



    I recall that special, but don't remember any details about the sniper other than he was military. It was a loooong shot across to a balcony of another highrise building, especially having to calculate the wind drift for a first shot kill, which he made.[8D] IIRC it was also far beyond 1000yds.

    folks get all intimidated by the number,..." ONE THOUSAND YARDS " makes them all giddy with anticipation or doubting their rifle/load etc. I showed up to the IBS 1000yd nationals having never even fired at a target much beyond 600yds. A guy set-up behind me with a set of "big eyes" and watched my bullet turbulence and subsequent impact. I made an adjustment then fired for effect, was told again where my impact was, made another adjustment, and VOILA I was on paper[^] I even shot right at MOA my very first time on paper at 1000yds. You have to shoot at the target to get any practice/experience. Run a good drop table and get after it. You may very well be suprised at how well you do, I know I left that day very happy for a first timer at 1000yds.
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yep, that's the one. I was thinking it was a mile or mile and a half because they were talking about the crazy hold over he had to make the shot. I was thinking it took him 2 or 3 shots to make the hit.


    quote:Originally posted by JustC
    quote:Originally posted by bambambam
    Wasn't there something on TV recently about a US sniper with a .308 in Bagdad or similar place, downing a guy with a rifle making pock shots at our men? I think it was on the history channel and the show was about snipers and the longest shots recorded.
    They also showed the sniper from Vietnam who killed 30-40 guys by a river close range. This man I think also had the most kills in Vietnam too?


    quote:Originally posted by JustC
    bullet weight, is mostly dependant on bullet length. Given a specific dia, the bullet length can only vary a by a small amount, in order to be the same weight. It is the lenght of the the BEARING SURFACE that makes the difference.

    VLD pills have a long bearing surface, and therefore, need a faster twist.

    as far as a 223 at 1000yds, it has been done. The military states the effective range of the .308 at somewhere aroung 800yds, but clean kills have been recorded far beyond that.



    I recall that special, but don't remember any details about the sniper other than he was military. It was a loooong shot across to a balcony of another highrise building, especially having to calculate the wind drift for a first shot kill, which he made.[8D] IIRC it was also far beyond 1000yds.

    folks get all intimidated by the number,..." ONE THOUSAND YARDS " makes them all giddy with anticipation or doubting their rifle/load etc. I showed up to the IBS 1000yd nationals having never even fired at a target much beyond 600yds. A guy set-up behind me with a set of "big eyes" and watched my bullet turbulence and subsequent impact. I made an adjustment then fired for effect, was told again where my impact was, made another adjustment, and VOILA I was on paper[^] I even shot right at MOA my very first time on paper at 1000yds. You have to shoot at the target to get any practice/experience. Run a good drop table and get after it. You may very well be suprised at how well you do, I know I left that day very happy for a first timer at 1000yds.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    There were some really good shots on that show:

    Ethan Place, the Marine who had 19 kills from 150-800m through a couple holes in a wall in front of his position. Including a running 650m shot.

    Robert Reichert, a Marine who made a one mile shot with a .50 cal with a RAUFUSS round. He hit the wall they were behind. The round exploded in the wall as expected and the fragments splattered three bad guys.

    Rob Furlong, The Canadian who took three shots to nail a taliban fighter in Afghanistan at 1.51 miles or 2430m or 2657.5 yards.

    Craig Harrison, in November 2009, a British sniper engaged a taliban machine gun team @ 1.538 miles or 2707 yds. It took nine shots for him to 'come-up' to the machine gunner. The AG then started trying to work the gun and he used the same hold and shot him as well. A third consecutive shot at the machine gun itself hit and destroyed that. He was shooting an Accuracy International .338 Lapua.

    James Gilliland, The longest (so far) 7.62x51 NATO kill was by James Gilliland. He was shooting to suppress the sniper that just shot his friend. He killed him on the first shot. With his scope held 8 ft. high and 8 ft left. From a long range zero.
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