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New Build Need Help

uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
Building a F/TR 223 in a savage action. What would be a good barrel length? a 30" is too long for a simple 223, All the powder will be burned up by then. Any recommendations? I would like at least a 24-28 inch depending on other models and other peoples experiences. Thanks!

-JD

Comments

  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,969
    edited November -1
    Built a 30" 223 Rem 700 for a friend.
    He had a 26" Win. 70.
    Took my 20" rem 700 and cronoed all three with three different loads.
    The 30" had the highest velocity of the three.
  • Riomouse911Riomouse911 Member Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    24" to 26", all good and more portable than a 30". IMHO the quality of the barrel and the chamber cut, the mating of it to the action, the bedding of the action, and the trigger quality are even more important than a minor fps gain or loss on the length of the barrel.

    Savage actions are the basis for lots of accurate guns, looks like you're on the right path.
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Portable does not come into the picture for F-T/R.
    All you have to do is get the rifle from the parking lot to the firing line and you can use a cart for that. 17 lb weight limit or thereabouts.

    MY .223 F-T/R has a 28" barrel. It will get a 90 gr VLD to 2690-2700 fps. I would not shorten it or buy shorter in the future.


    By the way, what's wrong with the Savage factory F-T/R?
    I wish it had been out when I rebuilt a 12BVSSS.


    quote:Might pay extra for a 32" barrel

    Hey, that is why I have 28" barrels on .223 and .308; that is the longest I could get from Krieger and Pac-Nor without an extra per-inch charge. You might want to look at the overall length, anything much over a 30" barrel is a little hard to find a carry case for.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nothing is wrong with it, I just want an aftermarket barrel. I can also get a savage action really cheap. Really Really cheap. I'm looking into broughton barrels with a 5C twist. Might pay extra for a 32" barrel just for kicks (might need to look at weight on that though). I have a qualified gunsmith to do the work. From what I hear he is very good, but I have not brought anything that needs to get done just yet to him.

    I will try it out. I need to find a stock as well. but I will get there. One piece at a time. My father says that for every inch on a barrel you can add about 50 FPS, is this correct?

    -JD
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Hawk Carse!

    I think I will stick with a 30" just because it is more common! Thanks again for your help guys!

    -JD
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,575 ******
    edited November -1
    uni82,

    Please consider advising your father that his figure might be correct for a certain instance and a specific set of circumstance but in general that's too high according to newer data and tests. But in fairness, there are so many variables to the process that almost any reasonable number can be assigned. My numbers are lower and case specific to the load and case design.

    More information:

    Broughton Rifle Barrels (Tim North) has declared bankruptcy and is struggling to make his business perform. I would avoid these barrels until he regains his financial composure and starts producing barrels at the quality level known previously.

    Bartlein, Krieger, Brux or any of the other 1/2 dozen or so top barrel makers will be acceptable.

    Unless you're using iron sights, a 30" barrel for the .223 Rem. cartridge is slightly overkill. A 28" barrel will do just as good for achieving your hits at 1,000 yards. And in fact, depending on your abilities to judge wind and drop, the 80 grain VLDs only take second to the 90's by 6 inches of wind but gain nearly 30" of elevation at 1,000 yards.

    McMillan makes a good F-Class stock but the Manners stock is superb. Be ready to wait for either if you order one. Sometimes Bruno's in Phoenix has a McMillan available.

    There's lots more to this other than parts selection. Enjoy the process.

    Best.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ok, so a 28" barrel will work with a 1:7" twist throwing 90 vlds will work? sounds good to me. i will look into other barrel companies too. not just broghton. I will also look at shilien and hart. thanks for the help!!!
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nonsense, the 80VLD's are better than the 90 VLD's by 30' of elevation or is that the other way around. I don't understand your wording.

    Is the 80 VLD's the 30" advantage at 1000 yards or are the 90 grains?

    Thanks

    -Joe
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,575 ******
    edited November -1
    uni82,

    The 80 gr. Berger VLDs have the 30" (inch) advantage over the 90 gr. Berger VLDs at 1,000 yards. This means that the 80 gr. bullets don't drop as much as the 90 gr. bullets at 1,000 yards. However, the 80 gr. VLDs will move at least 6" further from point of aim when compared to the 90 gr. VLDs.

    Most folks choose the 90 gr. bullets for better wind resistance, if you will, at the longer distances since judging drop is simpler.

    Bear in mind that this is heavily dependent on the load, barrel, other environmental conditions, etc. I make this point as a matter for discussion rather than just accepting that the 90 gr. bullets are superior in all respects. We should examine as many variables as possible when trying to decide on a bullet for long range shooting.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    Best.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nononsense,

    Thanks! I appreciate it. It's more what I am comfortable with. Looking into it now, will the 1:7" twist work? I think I might now get a HART barrel and they do a 1:6" twist. Will that be better with a 1:6" twist in a 30" tube or will 1:7" work? Thanks for all your help, building my first BR rifle!

    -Joe
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,575 ******
    edited November -1
    uni82,

    Berger recommends the 1:7" twist rate for the 90 gr. VLD Target bullets and the 80 gr. usually need the 1:8" twist. Nominally, the best twist rate for accuracy is the one which just keeps the bullet stable at the yardage desired.

    Faster twist rates can degrade accuracy and in some cases ruin the bullet jackets.

    Best.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Another question regarding twist. For simple numbers, 1:12" twist can stabilize 62 grain bullets but not 69. If the barrel was LONGER which gives more time with the bullet barrel connection, will that stabilize better even though the recommendation for the 69grain is a slower twist rate?

    Example:
    Lets say the AR15 16" barrel with a 1:12 inch twist can stabilize a 62 grain bullet but CAN NOT stabilize a 69. If a 24 or a 26 barrel length with a 1:12" barrel was then swapped out for the 16" could the AR15 stabilize the bullet with just the length of the barrel extended?

    This is just a hypothetical situation, no one in their right mind would change out a 1:12 twist barrel for a longer 1:12 in barrel. Thanks!


    I hope I am clear enough.

    -JD
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by uni82
    Another question regarding twist. For simple numbers, 1:12" twist can stabilize 62 grain bullets but not 69. If the barrel was LONGER which gives more time with the bullet barrel connection, will that stabilize better even though the recommendation for the 69grain is a slower twist rate?

    Example:
    Lets say the AR15 16" barrel with a 1:12 inch twist can stabilize a 62 grain bullet but CAN NOT stabilize a 69. If a 24 or a 26 barrel length with a 1:12" barrel was then swapped out for the 16" could the AR15 stabilize the bullet with just the length of the barrel extended?

    This is just a hypothetical situation, no one in their right mind would change out a 1:12 twist barrel for a longer 1:12 in barrel. Thanks!


    I hope I am clear enough.

    -JD


    You are.
    The general answer is no. "Barrel contact" is not what generates stability, spin rate is.
    I guess you could develop (or imagine) a load which a 16" barrel would barely fail to stabilize and a 26" barrel with higher muzzle velocity, and consequently higher rpms would barely stabilize. But it is nothing to count on. I once read that bullet stability increases as the fourth root of velocity. Increase the velocity 10% and stability increases only 2.4%.

    I actually own a .223 with 6.5" twist as recommended by Sierra for their 90 gr MK. If the 90 gr SMK is driven hard enough to remain supersonic at 1000 yards (which is above Sierra data), it is overstressed and may deform in flight and not make it to the target. I shot one string that was nothing but Xs, 10s, and misses. A 75 grain A-Max at top velocity would visibly disintegrate in midair. I can load either bullet down a bit and get excellent 600 yard accuracy.

    The 90 gr Berger or JLK VLD bullets hold up and do very well at 1000. Their BC and muzzle velocity compute to equal .308 175 gr trajectory and windage but they do not do quite that well on target.
  • uni82uni82 Member Posts: 416 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Awesome! Thank you for your help!

    Just a question I was throwing around between my ears.
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