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Old reloading manuals
fullcaseload
Member Posts: 224 ✭✭
Other than a hoarding/pack rat mentality why would/should one keep reloading manuals from the mid to late 1970s? I mean, many new powders have been introduced, new pressure rating techniques and methods. Powder burn rate charts are incomplete. I guess some ballistics and conversion charts are still relevant and basic reloading instructions are the same. But still, how can you trust a book that has the pictures of people who wrote the material that are dressed all funny looking. I don't know, back then I trusted and reloaded to that data (probably dressed all funny looking,too). However, I would not load to it now unless it was a load I had shot extensively (i.e. my 44 mag Blue Dot load). I would also suppose that if one were to send them to the trash he should probably first make them unreadable. As some of the loads have now been shown to be unstable and dangerous he would not want someone else to dig it out of the trash, use it and get hurt. (seems somehow like sacrilege though) What do you all think?
Comments
W.D.
Found many of the tables had changed very little or not at all!
The old data was good data then, no sense in throwing it out.[;)]
Neither method is anywhere near good enough.
So when you see loads and velocities in an old book that far exceed what is printed today, it is NOT an abundance of lawyers, but improvement in testing gear that result in lower - and safer - loads today.
Guns are designed with safety margins, but those margins are there to handle the very rare event where everything goes wrong, NOT regular use of over-pressure loads. You cannot ignore stress fatigue for long.
Old manuals are valuable for the time you stumble across a powder they don't make any more, and for general interest reading. But they shouldn't be used for loading with today's components.
Mistakes happen, and just because it got printed doesn't magically make it safe.
"Old manuals are valuable for the time you stumble across a powder they don't make any more, and for general interest reading. But they shouldn't be used for loading with today's components."
Just for fun,I still load 32-40's with "Sharpshooter" or "Lightning".
Try looking those up in your Funk & Wagnals!
For that matter, try looking up the .32-40 in a current manual! I should have mentioned obsolete cartridges as well as powders.
That's alright... it was covered[;)]
As others have pointed out, they have data for obsolete powders and cartridges.
My first manual was the Lyman #42 because it was current when I started reloading.
Over the years I have acquired a number of newer manuals as new cartridges, powders and bullets became available. Also a 1947 reprint of the 1941 Second edition of "Complete Guide to Handloading" by Philip B. Sharpe.
I still have supplies of some powders that I purchased new but which are no longer available. I have also from time to time acquired other "obsolete" powders.
With my collection of manuals I can almost always find a use for any powder.
If you load some of the older cartridges you will often find more data in some of the older manuals than you do in the newer ones.
And if you load some of the really old or obsolete calibers you will find a book like the one by Sharpe invaluable. Of course a lot of the powders listed are no longer available but many others are (e.g. Unique, 2400, 4227, 3031, 4198, Bullseye, etc.).
If you like it with 100s, that's probably fine. Just don't go to any lighter bullets with it.
Although maybe said warning notice should go into all my old manuals...[B)]
I NEVER had a blown primer, I NEVER had a sticky case, I NEVER had a loose primer with this load.Dave
I'd be very careful using some of that old data. I've got an old Hornady reloading manuel Volume II published 1973. When I first started loading many years ago I bought the old manuel at an auction sale. I found an interesting load for 45/70 in it. 50.6 grains of IMR 4227 behind a Hornady 300 grain jacketed hp. They were recomended for Ruger#1, I shot them in my Marlin 1895, (50 grains even), it shot great too. Anyway after shooting it several years, hundreds of round and a few deer with that load my buddy finally convinced me to contact IMR about the load. I called IMR powder labs and at that time spoke with a Bill Cole. He was very concerned and said if I promised not to shoot anymore of those loads, he'd run a lot of my handloads through their pressure barrel. If they were safe or dangerous he'd let me know. I loaded up 10 rounds in brand new brass and sent them to him. About 2 weeks later I was just sitting down for dinner when he called, they ran 5 rounds through their barrel and quit. Average velocity was 2387, average pressure was 63,300CUP, the 5th load was 65,600+CUP. I still have the Ballistics Test sheet Bill Cole sent me, it hangs on my wall above the loading bench, I'm looking at it as I type this.
I NEVER had a blown primer, I NEVER had a sticky case, I NEVER had a loose primer with this load.Dave
Something is goofy with that. Currently Hodgdon shows 55 gr. of H4198 behind that bullet and only getting 27,000 CUP. Accurate shows 57 gr. of AA2015 behind that bullet. Both of those powders are very close to IMR4227 in speed and all are single base powders, so no surprise pressure curves. The fact you weren't getting any pressure signs doesn't surprise me in the least. Remember there are three different loading levels for these rifles, excluding black powder. The hottest is the Ruger #1 and #3 and the Browning 1885. For those Hodgdon loads 62 gr. of H4198. If you had had the least bit of overpressure with that load it would have been really difficult to operate the lever.
So, I'll reiterate what we usually say here in CS&R, Find a SAFE starting point and work up. Looking for pressure signs. Check velocities if you can to verify loads are about what they should be. In your lever gun you would have 'felt' a very hard to work action long before you reached 60K+ pressures.
I'll stand by hanging on to your old manuals for powders, bullets and cartridges that are no longer published. It's a good place to start. And, FWIW, they did do a lot of testing back in the day with what they had. No, it isn't what it is today. If not for a couple technical mix-ups(typos misplaced/miswritten data), all the data is a good place to start in the old manuals. And the testing was not, "that looks about right". It was true to what they had at the time.
Anyway, that was his opinion on the matter and I tend to believe him. Both rifles are still in use and seem no worse for wear. Dave
I'll stand by what I said that the load you had was nowhere close to 60K+ pressure. However, if you feel you've got to knock it down to be safe, then that IS the best thing to do. I can't disagree that if something is bugging you about your load, BACK OFF! Your face, my face and the whole face of reloading is better when we do that. Bottom line is you did the right thing by stopping and checking.
I think too, there is something this thread needs to differentiate. That is the newest, latest, greatest information on our ol' favorite loads versus what we always worked up. There is a lot of truth in what a Piezo electric pressure transducer can tell us that a stack of copper rings could not. That being there is a lot less forgiveness with a load at the top end than the bottom. I found this out a bunch working with the .25 WSSM. There is a slew of good powders for it that weren't in the book. I ended up starting sometimes at a grain or two OVER max! Even for me that was a very uncomfortable feeling. What I really would have appreciated at the time was something to tell me the why's of what powder was causing too much pressure and heat.
That said, that is why I preach keeping the old manuals to give you a starting point. You need to work your loads up safely. Don't go by what the manual says for top end. Even today with the newer manuals! Your rifle may be tighter than the international pressure barrel the powder/bullet/cartridge company did the load tests with. If you are seeing pressure signs a grain and a half below what the book says, THEN STOP! You will get what you get with that powder/bullet combo. Understand powder and primer burn rates (reasons) and then work for a better combo if you want more velocity. And, understand when you are going to get all the velocity you possibly can and don't try to blow your face off getting that last little bit.
My point here is old manuals, everywhere I've found, give you a safe place to start. When you come across a cartridge no one can find anything on, old manuals can help with a place to start. It is up to you the reloader to work it up safely. And, learn to be satisfied when you get to the best load you can for that cartridge for the firearm you have.
As was said, some older manuals have a lot more loads for calibers popular at the time and also loads for obsolete cartridges.
I chronographed loads from old data for the 41 Long Colt that were right on the money.