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Extraction problem

NavybatNavybat Member Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭
edited August 2011 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
I've searched other forums, and have yet to get a satisfactory response. I hope someone here can help me.

My wife's PK380 is notoriously finicky about what ammo it likes. The ONLY ammo I've consistently found it to enjoy 100% is Fiocchi 95 grain .380 fmj. I have NEVER had an issue with this ammo. Velocity on it is about 960 fps. About 10 other types of ammo have been tested and I have always had SOME number of FTE or FTF.

Now, I reload .380 for my Bersa Thunder (which chews up almost EVERYTHING with 100% reliability). I made a load with 100 grain fmj with 3.4 grains of WIN 231. Velocity is around 900 fps. Perfect reliability.

I took the Walther PK380 to the range yesterday and had 100% reliability with the Fiocchi as usual. Then I tried Blazer ammo and had all rounds fire, but one of every three or four rounds had the spent cartridge stuck in the chamber. THEN I tried my custom rounds, and again one of each magazine would stick in the chamber (all fired, though.)

Can someone suggest why? I'm using WIN brass, and again, the loads fire perfectly in my Bersa. OAL is .01" to .005" less than the Fiocchi loads. My books (Hornady, Lyman, Lee) tell me I'm at the maximum or close to for the load I want with WIN 231 (which they all say is an excellent powder for the .380).

I want to know if I should up the charge in my reloads to get it to cycle properly in the Walther. I'm not showing pressure problems in the spent cartridges, and recoil isn't an issue. I just thought that 960 fps with 95 grain bullets vs. 900 fps for 100 grain wasn't a big difference...but obviously something is wrong. If it appears safe, can I up the charge? I'm thinking that's the issue here.
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    Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,189 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some of these pocket guns are inordinately sensitive to load variations. Often it can be traced to a burr or other problem with the extractor itself. Sometimes it is the geometry of the extractor groove in the brass itself. And sometimes it is merely a "weak wrist" of the shooter.

    No telling from your description which of those - or something else - it might be. But I'd start by looking carefully at the extractor and the groove of the good ammo. In general, European pistols are tuned for HOT loads. The answer might lie there.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
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    JustjumpJustjump Member Posts: 644 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree with rocky. check that the edges on extractor are clean and sharp. Sometimes a very delicate undercut on the contact side of the extractor with a jewelers file. (no dremel) so to make a slight relief back cut. Also take a look at the chamber, although with your description I suspect its ok, I always check here first on FTE
    O and yes they tend to "Like em hot"
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    bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Have you measured fired and unfired cases for comparison?
    I found Fiocchi 22 hornet brass to be on the small side, including the flash holes. The difference was minor about .0005-.001 but it was measurable

    Perhaps a nice polish job on your chamber is in order?
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    243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:100 grain fmj with 3.4 grains of WIN 231. Velocity is around 900 fps. This loading is already over maximum, compared to the data on the Hodgdon Website. Have you tried a lighter powder charge? In autos, the brass will not spring back with an over maximum loading. The brass clings to the chamber wall. If the chambers rough, this will make the brass stick even more. I would not load hotter. As far as pressure signs, the low presssure loading is not going to bulge the web area of the brass or have the primer flow into the firing pin hole. What may be seen is the sides of the brass will have a different look, something like a spider web pattern.Check you scale for accuracy/weight. The starting load compared to the maximum charge is only .2 or .3gr difference, a tiny amount of powder.
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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    NavybatNavybat Member Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    All good advice, and thanks. I'll measure the spent cartridges.

    My Hornady book shows 3.5 grains to be max...and max loads wouldn't explain the Blazer shells getting jammed, since they are not particularly hot.

    Yes, I've tried lighter loads in my Bersa, but not in the Walther...I'll try them.

    My scale is calibrated at the beginning of a session, and every 30 minutes into a session. It's an RCBS Chargemaster and I trust it completely.

    Thanks to all--you've definitely given me some leads to follow.
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    243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Is the Blazer ammo non-reloadable aluminum case or brass? Its sold both ways. I know brass has "spring back" after firing, does aluminum?
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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    NavybatNavybat Member Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 243winxb
    Is the Blazer ammo non-reloadable aluminum case or brass? Its sold both ways. I know brass has "spring back" after firing, does aluminum?


    They were the non-reloadable aluminum cases.
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    sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 243winxb
    quote:100 grain fmj with 3.4 grains of WIN 231. Velocity is around 900 fps. This loading is already over maximum, compared to the data on the Hodgdon Website. Have you tried a lighter powder charge? In autos, the brass will not spring back with an over maximum loading. The brass clings to the chamber wall, sometimes in a rifle the extractor will rip the rim apart. If the chambers rough, this will make the brass stick even more. I would not load hotter. As far as pressure signs, the low presssure loading is not going to bulge the web area of the brass or have the primer flow into the firing pin hole. What may be seen is the sides of the brass will have a different look, something like a spider web pattern.Check you scale for accuracy/weight. The starting load compared to the maximum charge is only .2 or .3gr difference, a tiny amount of powder.


    +1

    Or go with a faster powder downloaded a bit. I would not go hotter either!

    Edit:

    I read a little bit further down and:

    quote:Originally posted by Navybat
    My Hornady book shows 3.5 grains to be max...and max loads wouldn't explain the Blazer shells getting jammed, since they are not particularly hot.

    Yes, I've tried lighter loads in my Bersa, but not in the Walther...I'll try them.

    My scale is calibrated at the beginning of a session, and every 30 minutes into a session. It's an RCBS Chargemaster and I trust it completely.

    Thanks to all--you've definitely given me some leads to follow.


    Max loads are exactly why cases jam in the chamber. In semi-autos it's called fail to extract. In bolt action rifles it's called 'heavy bolt lift'. Try a lower load and see what happens. Try a faster powder with a lower load and work up....

    I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER ABOUT PEOPLE WHO TELL YOU TO GO HOTTER WHEN YOU HAVE THESE KINDS OF PROBLEMS. ...they must not be worried about your face/hands/life...
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    bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You could try a heavier bullet to see if you get more recoil for your slide to operate.

    One thing that some semi-auto's can be finiky about is bullet nose shape. I know some rifles won't cycle anything but FMJ or HP. My brother has a Springfield 1911 that won't feed a certian brand of ammo with a specific bullet style.
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    oneoldsaponeoldsap Member Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The first thing I do when dealing with FTE problems , is give the Chamber a good clean and polish ! Often as not that's the problem !
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    62fuelie62fuelie Member Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The PPK has a tendency to be finicky about the loads it will fire and function with. The two I have now - a German made blue steel and an American made stainless - both like the Federal Hydra-shok load. It always requires a firm wrist for full reliability with a small auto. I have had good results with 3.1 grains of 700X/W-W cases/CCI small pistol primers and the Sierra 90 gr. hp
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    NavybatNavybat Member Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok, update.

    I purchased 95 grain fmj bullets (the same as in the Fiocchi ammo) and reloaded polished, tumbled Fiocchi cases. (Before I was using 100 grain plated in Winchester cases.)

    3.2 grains WIN 231, same COL as the factory Fiocchi.

    Chronograph of factory Fiocchi: 1038 fps. All fired in the Walther PK380 with no FTF/FTE.

    Chronograph of my loads: 800 fps. ALL fired in the Walther with NO FTF/FTE.

    I also tried 2.9 grains WIN 231, got 720 fps, again NO FTF/FTE.

    I'm thinking the 95 grain bullets and the Fiocchi cases are the trick. I'm going to up the load a bit, 3.4 grains, and see what velocity I get. However, it seems as though running clean, polished Fiocchi cases (these cases have a small cannelure unlike the Winchesters I was using before) through a nice clean Walther PK380 has solved my problem.

    Edit: 3.4 grains of 231 yields 842 fps, 100% reliability. I think I've found my load!

    Thanks for the help, everyone.
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    243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Change a component & the pressure changes. Ligher bullet & different bearing surface, different pressure.
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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