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38 Special, 200 gr. lead loads
WinMike
Member Posts: 144 ✭✭✭
Friend of mine has a 38 S&W, which lead to research about the Brit .380-200 military load, which lead to my "need" to replicate that cartridge in 38 Special.
I have some loads using some of the powders in my inventory: H2400, IMR 4227, Blue Dot, W231, Unique and Green Dot, but am wondering if I can also use AA #5. Any thoughts?
I have some loads using some of the powders in my inventory: H2400, IMR 4227, Blue Dot, W231, Unique and Green Dot, but am wondering if I can also use AA #5. Any thoughts?
Comments
www.handloadersbench.com/forum17/14485.html
Bullseye 2.0 gr 590 fps 2.7 gr 720 fps
Unique 2.0 gr 450 4.0 gr 681
The Saeco 200 gr. bullet http://www.westernbullet.com/sa3gr2.html is going to make COL +1.650"! ....obviously won't fit in all revolvers, especially snub nose. Should be interesting to shoot.
The Brits believed that the .380-200 had as much "stopping power" as their .455 Webley, despite an almost 400+/- ft.lb. difference. Since I don't have access to gelatin blocks, a field of sheep or a stable of horses (U.S. Army's favorite early 20th century test subjects), I'll just have to take their word for it.
But come on.....[?] You think?!
.38 Special 200 grain lead bullet:
Unique 3.4 gr starting load for 745 fps
3.6gr max load for 780 fps 15700 psi OAL 1.540 in
Blue Dot 5.0gr starting load for 802 fps
5.3 gr max load for 850 fps 16000 psi OAL 1.540 in
Green Dot 3.0gr starting load 729 fps
3.1gr max load for 750 fps 15500 PSI OAL 1.540 in
Didn't see anything for AA#5.
As usually stated regarding internet load suggestions, check for updates and other safe loads on the powder company websites or call their tech guys if you have questions. Have fun and shoot safely!
I must have one of these 38 S&W, I thought..until in a moment of unusual lucidity, I realized that I should be able to replicate that loading in the several 38 Special/357 Magnum revolvers I already own.
So I ordered 200 gr. cast bullets from Western Bullet www.westernbullet.com , who offer two choices: Lyman 358430 LRN and Saeco #351 LFN. (We also ordered the Lyman bullet in .360 for my friend's 38 S&W, but haven't yet loaded them).
There were quite a few loading recipes..thanks to those on this site who contributed their advice..including Unique, W231, Green Dot, Blue Dot and H2400. For the first batch, I loaded the Lyman bullet under 3.1 gr. Green Dot (WSP primers). Although the bullet is long (.808"), crimping in the top groove created a COL of 1.564"..most of my load books show 38 Special COL as 1.45"-1.48". So a big chunk of lead is hanging out in front of the brass, however, it fits in a S&W Mdl 586, Taurus 82 and S&W Mdl 10. It's too long for a Taurus 85 as well as any S&W J frame revolvers.
The Saeco bullet was a different story. It's a longer (.899") slightly-pointy design with a small, flat meplat. Seating the bullet (over 3.8 gr. W231) on the crimp groove created a COL of 1.750", impossibly long for any of my revolvers (this must have been created as a rifle bullet?).
Pushing the bullet down to COL 1.687" fit the Taurus 85 and the Mdl 586, but not the Mdl 10. I finally settled on a COL of 1.604, since the idea is to shoot in my Mdl 10, a firearm similar to the Victory Lend-Lease WWII revolvers sent to England (yes, I know: the Brit Victory revolvers had 5" barrels whereas mine are 4").
I used a Lee "Factory Crimp" die as a last step on both bullets, a step especially needed on the Saeco bullet since there's no crimp at that length.
With both bullets seated as above, there's not a lot of room left in the brass for powder. I think the heavier amounts of powder required for H2400 or IMR 4227 might have created compressed loads, so I'm comfortable using faster powders.
We wandered out into the woods and set up some targets. The Taurus was the most accurate as well as comfortable to shoot, not surprising with its heavy barrel and Hogue grips. The Model 10 was also easy to shoot, even with its small, original wooden grips. Both shot 4" low @ 25 yds. which surprised me, but perhaps the loads are too mild.
Both rounds exhibited a cloud of smoke at ignition, which I attribute to the unknown red lube on the bullets (but that just adds to the air of battle authenticity, right?!) Groups were 6" or less, with at least a third hitting on or near a small bulls eye.
I also shot some 148 gr. wadcutters which I guessed would have the same velocity, but which hit right to POI. Lacking a chronograph, I'm guessing the 200 gr. cartridges are slower. Or is there yet another physics principle of which I'm not aware?
The way to move POI with fixed sights is to regulate the FPS of the load.
Slow it down to raise the POI, speed it up to raise POI.
These things change the recoil some.
I was acquainted with a physician who did wound ballistics research in conjunction with Navy officers at Desert Samaritan Hospital in Phoenix. They shot at donated cadavers in the lab. The doctor told me that 200-grain .38 handloads had been tried, and that at moderate velocities, they tended to penetrate all the way through even if tripped off-axis upon entry. I could easily see such a load taking someone out from under their hat. BTW, they tried just about everything, and they published a paper on the wounding capabilities of the 5.56mm as opposed to the 7.62mm. Again, they were not using gelatin blocks, but were using the real thing, as targets. Advocates of the 5.56mm don't want to know how things came out[;)].
I was in the Army when 5.56 was just being introduced. We were told that the strategy was to wound....that way, two or more enemy were incapacitated as others helped remove the wounded from the battlefield. At least that's what our side did....[:(]
But we digress.....
I can see how a big o' wad o' lead, even moving slowly, could cause lots of damage: I once shot a deer with a .45 Colt with a 275 gr. bullet and a muzzle velocity of no more than 850 fps.
My next step is to load the Saeco bullets in .357 Mag for my Browning low wall. Should be able to seat them further out, and get a little more velocity.