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Thomas 45ACP Double Action Pistol
RadCat
Member Posts: 680 ✭✭✭✭
Years ago, (early 80's) I obtained this pistol.It was made by AJ Ordnance, in Covina, Cal. Serial number 0015XX. It is the size of a 1911 Officers Model, all steel, blued, with very, very slight finish wear. Every shot is double action only, working in a straight blowback frame fixed barrel. What looks like a grip safety, is not, it's a push-up activated cam that momentarily provides a delay while firing using the fleshy part of your hand as a spring board. Interesting gun, compact and reliable. Very heavy double action trigger though, doesn't need a safety. Magazine holds six rounds and is similar in size to Officers Model.Does anybody out there know of these guns. How many were made? Or its present value? Do these pistol have any collector value, or just shooters?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
As far as price, I would agree with the other gentleman. I have purchased Thomas Pistols ranging from $300 to $450. If you have the box and paperwork, it's fair. It's tough to establish price because the pistol is fairly rare, and has not developed a following (yet). I feel that is one of the better buys out there. The accuracy is exceptional because of the fixed barrel (ala H&K P7 series), it's compact (but godawful heavy), it's pretty rare, and it's a .45! Enjoy it.
Hi, just found the forum. It's nice to see someone interested in the Thomas. It is a unusual gun. It is believed that less than 1000 were produced. I own a few of them. The earliest S/N I have is 10XX. It has "1974 pat. applied for" on the slide. Early guns were blued and had no trigger stop. Later guns were produced in blue, satin chrome, and nickled. I have a later gun, S/N 13xx that is nickled. It has a trigger stop as well as a hooked trigger guard. The slide from the earlier pistol will not fit the frame of the later model, though they appear almost identical.
As far as price, I would agree with the other gentleman. I have purchased Thomas Pistols ranging from $300 to $450. If you have the box and paperwork, it's fair. It's tough to establish price because the pistol is fairly rare, and has not developed a following (yet). I feel that is one of the better buys out there. The accuracy is exceptional because of the fixed barrel (ala H&K P7 series), it's compact (but godawful heavy), it's pretty rare, and it's a .45! Enjoy it.
Thanks, and welcome to GB's.
My Thomas is a keeper. Have it since the early 80's and expect it will remain with me. It is indeed very accurate even though in spite of its weight it kicks like a mule. I do not have the original box. The original hard plastic grip stocks cracked (still have them) so I made a new set of nice wood. I have two original magazines. Somebody here not long ago said he had a couple of original magazines and offered them in an e-mail, to which I replied affirmatively, but did not hear back from.
Hey, who knows maybe you can start a "Thomas DA Pistol" fan club. I would join. [:D][:D][:D][8D][8D][;)]
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
"Nothing can ever be made 'idiot proof' because idiots are simply too clever"!
Mark T. Christian
I ain't selling my Thomas DA. I need it for my own collection. Maybe our new "GB-friend" KOZ5614 will sell you one of his. You are absolutely right, these pistol were very well made of very hard quality steel. The looks of it reminiscing of a Walther PPK on steroids.
I got mine when I was a firearms dealer in New Jersey from another dealer. It was his pride and joy, so he said, but I think that he was just holding for a better deal. Eventually I traded him for a gun I was customizing in those days, a miniaturized Browning Hi-Power. I got the Thomas and something else I can't remember. What can I say, I like quality "odd" guns.
Venry, (RadCat) [:D][:D][:D][8D][8D]
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
As a collector, I am always looking for information on the Thomas.
Would it be possible for you to either burn me off a copy of that 1976 ad, or tell me where you found it? I'm intigued by the wood grips. I've only seen 2 Thomas Pistols with wood grips- one of them is listed on GB right now. I was able to source an extra mag from a friend in AZ. Before that I was using Colt commander mags. FYI, a company called Tyler Tru-Fit produced ivory like micarta grips for the Thomas in the late 70's/ early 80's. I've got a set on my chrome gun. They look good.
The fact that someone produced aftermarket grips for the gun leads me to believe that there could have been leather and other accessories produced. Anyone know?
I have seriously considered starting a Thomas "fan club" and have been contacting others who own the pistols to try to get a handle on the S/N range. The lowest is 10XX. The highest I know of is 15XX.
Anyone have one lower or higher? I'd be happy to share any info and paperwork/articles I have with fellow collectors.
The first Thomas I saw was in Edelman's Gun Shop in Pennsauken, NJ. Anyone wanna talk about ASPs, Devels, Bren Tens, Wildeys, Automags, Detonics, or ODI Vikings? I collect some odd stuff. (Boy, my wife sure does hate my hobby) Have a good one.
Count me in!
Acording to your info, I must be the one with the "newest" one. I did obtain it in New Jersey from a dealer in Hoboken.
I also have a pancake style leather holster which I molded out of the gun years ago. Time consuming, especially the hand stitching, patterned it around a DeSantis design.
Later on, if they do not "lock" this thread I will post some pictures of my Thomas with the "wood" (Pecan wood) stocks and its leather holster.
I found references and listing with pictures of this firearm in and older "Gun Bible", including original MSRP of $275.00
Can you post some pictures of your Thomas pistols with the different variations you have?
______________________________________________
"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
______________________________________________
"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
You mentioned about one being available in GunBroker. I checked it out:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=30260080
It is listed for over $1200.00 which is a a heck of a lot more than what it sold new back then. Can't tell if it will go for that price or if it will re-list? Regarless, it looks like these firearms would be worth their price in gold, at present? [:D][:D][:D][8D][8D]
______________________________________________
"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
All the Thomas is, at this point in time. Is a little know, impractical oddity. Much more value to a collector, than as a shooter, IMHO.
I must say it was a neat little gun then as it is today, and I agree It is now a collector piece with no repair parts available shooting it can lead to an unrepairable gun worth much less to even avid collectors.
With that said, I'd still have to run a box of target loads through it, just because...
Specifications:
The Alexander James (AJ) Ordnance Inc. company produced an estimated 600 "Thomas" pistols, chambered in .45 ACP, from 1977 to 1988. The design somewhat resembles that of a hammerless Makarov PM or Walther PP, only, instead of a straight blowback operation, it utilizes a delayed blowback, by means of dual (both sides) slide-locking levers that are engaged by the grip-safety looking part on the back of the frame. When the part is depressed, the levers on eihter side engage lots in the slide. From there, the pistol is fired by pulling the trigger (DAO), releasing the striker (yes, a striker) and firing a cartridge. The levers holding the slide from moving are forced down from the recoiling slide (fixed barrel), AKA a delayed blowback operation. I once heard the trigger described as "staple gun-y", and that is absolutely the most accurately way to explain how it feels - long, even pull with a sudden "click" and release of pressure at the end.
It should also be noted, in the operation of this pistol, that one cannot physically rack the slide with the slide-locking lever grip part depressed. This means, in order to chamber a round, one must have a non-firing grip which does not activate the grip part, then rack the slide. Also, the pistol has a magazine disconnect safety. Finally, the capacity of this pistol, using the factory magazine, is 5+1, even though the magazine can hold 6 rounds of .45 ACP. This is because the rounds in the magazine are pushed down quite a bit when the magazine is locked into the grip of the gun, and with 6 rounds in the magazine, the rounds cannot be pushed any farther down, not allowing the magazine to lock into the grip of the gun. Therefore, you cannot "top-off" this pistol, as you can with most others.
Patents:
US Patent 3,857,325
"Semi-automatic firearm"
Filed by Frank S. Thomas, September 4th, 1973
US Patent 4,031,648
"Magazine safety and ejector"
Filed by Frank S. Thomas, December 29th, 1975
Publications:
"The Thomas .45 ...New Gun In Town" by Walter Rickell
American Handgunner, January/February 1977 Issue
"PART VIII : Miscellaneous Matters" by Dean A. Grennell
Law Enforcement Handgun Digest, 1976
Mike
Pricing:
"We are currently unaware of any pricing for this firearm design. If you know of any, please contact us so that we may add it to help further firearms history education." (from one of the prominent gun board forums)
WYLTKM?
Mike
My Thomas Collection:
Starting from far left, going clockwise (ending with the gun in the bottom-middle):
1. Prototype A
2. Prototype B
3. Prototype C
4. EXP-1
5. Production Model
All of the pre-production guns are either stainless steel or just unfinished, regular carbon steel - I tend to think it is the latter.
Prototype A:
So this is the first Thomas ever made. Looking at it closely, it is easy to tell this gun has been worked on by hand. There are many parts not included - intentionally, I'd imagine. Putting myself in Frank S. Thomas's shoes, I think this gun was the proof of concept for the action (trigger assembly, especially), more than anything.
Rollmark: "THOMAS .45 ACP | PROTOTYPE A | MADE BY H&N MINI-CRAFT | COVINA, CALIF."
Most parts are missing from Prototype A, like the magazine catch/release, slide catch/release, rear sight, takedown pins, and grip delay lever are missing. This is definitely the most incomplete of all the pre-production Thomas pistols. Magazine is stuck in the gun.
Rollmark: "U.S.A. AND FOREIGN PATENTS APPLIED FOR"
Prototype B:
The second Thomas ever made. Also the most complete out of all the four pre-production guns (A, B, C, & EXP-1). Everything is functional, no parts are missing, and it looks to be in great shape. And the magazine isn't stuck in the gun!
Rollmark: "THOMAS .45 ACP | PROTOTYPE B | MADE BY H&N MINI-CRAFT | COVINA, CALIF."
So Prototypes B and C have a different style of grip assembly than the production models and even the EXP-1 pistol. Most noticeably, they are handmade from wood, rather than the later plastic, and they feature grips screws in a different location than the later guns. However, the production models are known to have grips fall apart due to poor design (parts where the grips are too thin, leading to easy cracking).
Prototype C:
The third Thomas ever made. Appears to only be missing an ejector and rear sight. The gun will likely fire, but whether or not it will successfully eject and chamber rounds is another question. The magazine is also pretty well stuck in the gun.
Rollmark: "THOMAS .45 ACP | PROTOTYPE C | MADE BY H&N MINI-CRAFT | COVINA, CALIF."
Seeing as Prototypes A, B, and C, have more similar construction when compared to EXP-1 and the production guns, as well as the matching rollmarks and lettering order, my guess is that Frank S. Thomas had ordered three guns at first from H&N Mini-Craft, so he could experiment with getting everything down and removing all the kinks.
Rollmark: "U.S.A. AND FOREIGN PATENTS APPLIED FOR"
EXP-1:
The "experimental" Thomas pistol - the first of the pre-production guns to have all features of the production pistols. My guess is that this is the fourth Thomas ever made, after the three prototypes (A, B, & C). No rollmark on the right side of the slide, from either H&N Mini-Craft or AJ Ordnance.
No real serial number, but the frame is stamped with "EXP-1". I haven't yet field-stripped any of these guns aside from my production model Thomas, but it looks like EXP-1 may be missing the firing pin, front sight, and extractor - relatively easy parts to replace.
Rollmark: "PATENT 1974, OTHER US AND | FOREIGN PATENTS APPLIED FOR"
Production Model Thomas:
Most production models were blued like mine, but I have seen chrome and nickel finishes on several, with some claiming to own stainless guns, but I doubt they are truly stainless - they certainly do not look like stainless, and there is no reliable source that supports any stainless Thomas's ever being built.
On the right side of the slide, you can see the rollmark featured on all 600 production model Thomas pistols: "Thomas | CALIBER .45 ACP | AJ ORDNANCE | COVINA, CALIF. | MADE IN USA"
This was my first Thomas pistol, and of my collection it is the only one I have shot (and likely the only one I will ever shoot, unless I get more). The serial number is "001310", and based on all serial numbers I've seen on production models, it seems like they start at 001000, meaning this would be gun number 310, out of the mere 600 production models made.
Sorry guys - sorry Mark I have made an epic mess here trying to salvage this archival data and transfer it here...
To further complicate things the data is incomplete and pics are gone / pic hosting sight issues...
I have tried to clean things up but I am afraid that my hands are not working right - the intractable degenerative neuropathy is giving me a terribly terrific hard time - I am sorry to cause a problem but I am afraid my hands just are not working right..
I just can't get the fingers to do what I want them to do.
Sorry.
Mike