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Ex Felons should have all rights restored.

Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 22,970 ✭✭✭✭
Since the last topic went so well, let's try another.

I maintain that the Federal Law banning firearm possession by ex-Felons is not only unconstitutional, but is counter-productive.

First the mechanics:

The current law is unenforceable absent complete elimination of FTF sales, and the registration of all known firearms. This is the only way that transfers to ex felons can be traced to the source. The first person who breaks the paper trail is to be prosecuted.

The current law by not being all-inclusive as noted above is nothing more than window dressing that is supported by some gun rights groups in a vain attempt to appear to accept 'reasonable' gun control. This acceptance however, burdens the law abiding much more so than it burdens the ex felons, and adds significantly to the cost of buying and selling firearms.

Now the human side:

Ex felons who want to get their lives back on track normally exit prison without significant economic resources and because of this are often forced to live in areas with higher than average crime rates. By dis-arming this population, you are doing one of two things:

A. You are creating a sub-group of defenseless individuals who are then easily victimized at a time in their lives when they can least afford it.

B. Or, you are creating repeat offenders if a person obtains a firearm for the protection of himself and his family.

We always hear that 'An armed society is a polite society', but I suspect that many don't take the time to truly understand the application various sub-cultures around our country.

We cannot expect those that are trying to rejoin society to succeed if we insist upon kicking them when they are down and withholding from them the basic human right of self-defense.

Lastly, and on a selfish note, the disabled list includes ex-felons, those that use illegal drugs, and those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence and those adjudicated to be mentally unfit. This list will do nothing but expand, and many on the left have stated that the desire to own a firearm should be a mental disqualification to do the same.

Therefore, I propose that the disability associated with prior convictions be dropped. As I have stated before, I believe society has much more to fear from an over-reaching and controlling Government than it does from the miniscule number of ex-felons that are actually prevented from owning firearms by this ridiculous law.

Civility would be appreciated, thanks.
Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

Brad Steele

Comments

  • casper1947casper1947 Member Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am glad you brought this subject up. It caused me to do some research.

    It appears to be a State issue not a Federal.

    First:
    4473 question 11.c appears straight forward but reading further on is

    EXCEPTION to 11.c. and 11.i.
    A person who has been convicted of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned the person for more than one year, or who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if: (1) under the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred, the person has been pardoned, the conviction has been expunged or set aside, or the person has had their civil rights (the right to vote, sit on a jury, and hold public office) taken away and later restored AND (2) the person is not prohibited by the law of the jurisdiction where the conviction occurred from receiving or possessing firearms. Persons subject to this exception should answer "no" to 11.c. or 11.i., as applicable.


    This appears to defer to State law.

    In Texas the right to vote is suspended and restored when " if so convicted must have (1) fully discharged the sentence, including any term of incarceration, parole, or supervision, or completed a period of probation ordered by any court; or (2) been pardoned or otherwise released from the resulting disability to vote;"

    Texas also prohibits a felon from possessing a firearm for 5 years after fully discharged sentence is complete. It is then limited to their residence ONLY. But the way i read it they could answer NO to 11.c and be allowed to purchase a firearm thru an FFL.

    There are 49 more answers to this question.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member Posts: 63,066 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't recall all that I posted before, but it was to the effect that even locked up criminals are able to obtain guns so it seems foolish to think that one's on the loose wont. That and that basically any non trade transaction is traceable these days.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • MadjackMadjack Member Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    First off, your right that these laws are ineffective. But I tire of people stating, with certainty, where criminals get their guns. Having questioned prisoners, it was found that only a small share is from gun shows, friends/family, or other straw purchases. Theft or black market is the biggie. Morons from the media, not being smart enough to do any investigating, keep telling us that full auto weapons are taken from just about every household. These guns, if really full auto, come from offshore sources. And you will never stop this. If, and when, the government ever takes my regular sporting arms, the first thing I'll do is put the word out on the street & load up with military weapons/ammo. Just like they do in Mexico.
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 22,970 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Madjack
    First off, your right that these laws are ineffective. But I tire of people stating, with certainty, where criminals get their guns. Having questioned prisoners, it was found that only a small share is from gun shows, friends/family, or other straw purchases. Theft or black market is the biggie. Morons from the media, not being smart enough to do any investigating, keep telling us that full auto weapons are taken from just about every household. These guns, if really full auto, come from offshore sources. And you will never stop this. If, and when, the government ever takes my regular sporting arms, the first thing I'll do is put the word out on the street & load up with military weapons/ammo. Just like they do in Mexico.


    The larger point, IMO, is not that the laws are ineffective, but that they are wrong. Absent positive action and significant expense, most ex-felons are disabled for life. Granted, some should be. Those that should be should not be on the street anyway, and I recognize that the elimination of this permanent disability will have to be coordinated with a re-vamping of our criminal justice system.

    As casper1947 points out, there are avenues available for restoration. For most, the effort involves thousands, if not 10s of thousands of dollars, a resource that many do not have, effectively making permanent the punishment for an error in one's past. I have a fundamental disagreement with this approach. Paying one's debt to society should be just that. As it now stands, for most people, particularly those that are honestly working to re-join society, the punishment for that error will follow them to the grave.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • casper1947casper1947 Member Posts: 1,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
    quote:Originally posted by Madjack
    First off, your right that these laws are ineffective. But I tire of people stating, with certainty, where criminals get their guns. Having questioned prisoners, it was found that only a small share is from gun shows, friends/family, or other straw purchases. Theft or black market is the biggie. Morons from the media, not being smart enough to do any investigating, keep telling us that full auto weapons are taken from just about every household. These guns, if really full auto, come from offshore sources. And you will never stop this. If, and when, the government ever takes my regular sporting arms, the first thing I'll do is put the word out on the street & load up with military weapons/ammo. Just like they do in Mexico.


    The larger point, IMO, is not that the laws are ineffective, but that they are wrong. Absent positive action and significant expense, most ex-felons are disabled for life. Granted, some should be. Those that should be should not be on the street anyway, and I recognize that the elimination of this permanent disability will have to be coordinated with a re-vamping of our criminal justice system.

    As casper1947 points out, there are avenues available for restoration. For most, the effort involves thousands, if not 10s of thousands of dollars, a resource that many do not have, effectively making permanent the punishment for an error in one's past. I have a fundamental disagreement with this approach. Paying one's debt to society should be just that. As it now stands, for most people, particularly those that are honestly working to re-join society, the punishment for that error will follow them to the grave.

    I don't think the "MEDIA" are morons. They are conveying exactly the message they want. Their NEWS READERS do appear ignorant, yet they present themselves as informed authorities. The stories are 50 to 1 that guns do bad things.

    I may have been short on the restoration of rights. I only viewed this from a State perspective. With the list of Federal felonies growing a Federal conviction would prevent someone from purchasing thru an FFL. I have no idea what the restoration process would be or if the conditions set by the particular State may apply.

    Does anyone else find it a bit ironic that being under indictment will prevent a purchase thru an FFL but not serving in Congress?
  • ChrisInTempeChrisInTempe Member Posts: 15,562
    edited November -1
    There should be a life-long element of punishment for serious crimes. A period of incarceration, perhaps fines or required reimbursement. Followed by freedom at the end of time served but with restricted rights of citizenship because the felon has demonstrated an inability to live by societies rules.

    There should also be a defined process of reclaiming one's full rights of citizenship. By proving that the punishment worked and the ex-felon will not re-offend. This should not be easy.

    I'd keep it as a State process.

    If anyone thinks their particular State needs to work on their process, fine, go for it.
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,637 ******
    edited November -1
    To state that felons should have their rights restored is to ignore the mental illness, character flaws, and personality defects that caused them to be felons in the first place. Have you ever known any convicted felons? I have, and most of them simply don't process information the same way you and I do. Many of them have no empathy or consideration of the rights and property of others. Many have no impulse control. For the most part, we are not talking about someone like me or you, who just made a bad choice, one time, and got caught.
  • ChrisInTempeChrisInTempe Member Posts: 15,562
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    To state that felons should have their rights restored is to ignore the mental illness, character flaws, and personality defects that caused them to be felons in the first place. Have you ever known any convicted felons? I have, and most of them simply don't process information the same way you and I do. Many of them have no empathy or consideration of the rights and property of others. Many have no impulse control. For the most part, we are not talking about someone like me or you, who just made a bad choice, one time, and got caught.


    Agreed. Not nearly as much experience with ex-felons, but with the few I've encountered I'd say you nailed it.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Member, Moderator, Sr. Moderator Posts: 37,704 ***** Sr. Moderator
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    To state that felons should have their rights restored is to ignore the mental illness, character flaws, and personality defects that caused them to be felons in the first place. Have you ever known any convicted felons? I have, and most of them simply don't process information the same way you and I do. Many of them have no empathy or consideration of the rights and property of others. Many have no impulse control. For the most part, we are not talking about someone like me or you, who just made a bad choice, one time, and got caught.
    Then they should be in prison, or dead.
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 22,970 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    To state that felons should have their rights restored is to ignore the mental illness, character flaws, and personality defects that caused them to be felons in the first place. Have you ever known any convicted felons? I have, and most of them simply don't process information the same way you and I do. Many of them have no empathy or consideration of the rights and property of others. Many have no impulse control. For the most part, we are not talking about someone like me or you, who just made a bad choice, one time, and got caught.


    There are some that need to be kept out of society, David, I agree. I am thinking more about those that are attempting to re-join society. The wife worked with families where one or both of the parents were ex-felons. The sampling she worked with was those that were trying to re-establish their lives.

    Every turn was another road block. Tough to get a decent job, which forced them to live in areas of town none of the rest of us would go into without being armed. Had they tried to arm themselves during this transition phase in their lives, they would be slapped with another felony.

    FWIW, we have hired a couple of ex-felons over the years. One worked out well. The second did not, as he was caught with a pistol after he and his wife had an argument and she ratted him out. He wasn't the nicest feller in the world, but was, I think, actually getting his life back on track.



    Lastly, do you believe that these laws actually keep firearms out of the hands of those folks that you are describing? It would be interesting to know how many who truly want a firearm to commit a crime are dissuaded by these laws.

    I guess I do not see what we are accomplishing by denying those that want to follow the law the ability to protect themselves from those that disregard it anyway.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,637 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Then they should be in prison, or dead.

    There you go, using the "S" word again! You know the old saying: Put coulda, woulda, and shoulda in one hand, and poo in the other, and see which hand fills faster.

    I have dealt with literally hundreds of convicted felons, many on probation or parole, and I agree that most of them "should" be in prison or dead, permanently removed from society, but that's not the world we live in.

    I do know one couple, a man and wife, who are both convicted felons, and who are a rehabilitation success story. They both went to prison as drug addicts, convicted of burglaries committed to fuel their drug habits. They met in a halfway house upon release from the penitentiary. They found that good jobs were out of reach, so they worked at menial jobs for a time. They later went to work for a property management company, maintaining and repairing properties. Using the knowledge and skills gained from building maintenance, they launched their own company, building affordable homes and selling them to low-income families. My son lives in a house built by this couple and their company.

    They now live in one of the more desirable subdivisions in town, and are very well off. Even without prison in their past, this would be a classic American success story. These two people, unfortunately, are more the exception than the rule.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Member, Moderator, Sr. Moderator Posts: 37,704 ***** Sr. Moderator
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    quote:Then they should be in prison, or dead.

    There you go, using the "S" word again! You know the old saying: Put coulda, woulda, and shoulda in one hand, and poo in the other, and see which hand fills faster.

    I have dealt with literally hundreds of convicted felons, many on probation or parole, and I agree that most of them "should" be in prison or dead, permanently removed from society, but that's not the world we live in.

    I do know one couple, a man and wife, who are both convicted felons, and who are a rehabilitation success story. They both went to prison as drug addicts, convicted of burglaries committed to fuel their drug habits. They met in a halfway house upon release from the penitentiary. They found that good jobs were out of reach, so they worked at menial jobs for a time. They later went to work for a property management company, maintaining and repairing properties. Using the knowledge and skills gained from building maintenance, they launched their own company, building affordable homes and selling them to low-income families. My son lives in a house built by this couple and their company.

    They now live in one of the more desirable subdivisions in town, and are very well off. Even without prison in their past, this would be a classic American success story. These two people, unfortunately, are more the exception than the rule.
    Well you know everything about it, and I know nothing, so there ya go.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member Posts: 63,066 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    quote:Then they should be in prison, or dead.

    There you go, using the "S" word again! You know the old saying: Put coulda, woulda, and shoulda in one hand, and poo in the other, and see which hand fills faster.

    I have dealt with literally hundreds of convicted felons, many on probation or parole, and I agree that most of them "should" be in prison or dead, permanently removed from society, but that's not the world we live in.

    I do know one couple, a man and wife, who are both convicted felons, and who are a rehabilitation success story. They both went to prison as drug addicts, convicted of burglaries committed to fuel their drug habits. They met in a halfway house upon release from the penitentiary. They found that good jobs were out of reach, so they worked at menial jobs for a time. They later went to work for a property management company, maintaining and repairing properties. Using the knowledge and skills gained from building maintenance, they launched their own company, building affordable homes and selling them to low-income families. My son lives in a house built by this couple and their company.

    They now live in one of the more desirable subdivisions in town, and are very well off. Even without prison in their past, this would be a classic American success story. These two people, unfortunately, are more the exception than the rule.
    So, are you advocating that violent felons should be released?
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • j3hillj3hill Member Posts: 33 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It should be just like the days of old. You got out of jail, you got your horse, hat and gun back.

    All the while that idiot whats her name, Hillary, has pushed for the right of CURRENTLY incarcerated people to vote. She and her stupid husband have been pushing this since 1994
  • Jim RauJim Rau Member Posts: 3,550
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    To state that felons should have their rights restored is to ignore the mental illness, character flaws, and personality defects that caused them to be felons in the first place. Have you ever known any convicted felons? I have, and most of them simply don't process information the same way you and I do. Many of them have no empathy or consideration of the rights and property of others. Many have no impulse control. For the most part, we are not talking about someone like me or you, who just made a bad choice, one time, and got caught.

    BUT I have known, and currently know, many people who, in their youth, were convicted of felonies which were non violent and now they are upstanding, responsible, respectable citizens who are not allowed to defend themselves, their family, their homes, or their businesses because of this lunacy.[:(]
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