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National Bullet Corp

Hello to all reloaders, just a quick question. Has anyone had problems ordering bullets from National Bullet Corp. I orderd about $100.00 worth of bullets from them in July, they charged my credit card and never shipped the bullets. They kept telling me by e-mail they were going to ship, but the never did. Then they stopped responding to e-mails. I had to get my credit card company involved to get my money back. Anyone else have the same problem?[?]

Comments

  • knucklehead14knucklehead14 Member Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Stay away from this co.
    Bullets are junk.
  • dg101windg101win Member Posts: 751 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Numerous people have posted the same problems on other forums as well. My order from March of this year shipped in August after an abundance of emails,phonecalls,opening trouble tickets everyday on their website.
    Quality has gone south also look at www.pennbullets.com/
    www.trinityarms.com/ to name a couple of places. Also Mid-South,Midway,Laser Cast.
    Also try the auction sites I found a few good deals there on name brand cast bullets.
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,390
    edited November -1
    Every one I know has had trouble tell your credit card you will not pay for item you did not receive.
  • richbugrichbug Member Posts: 3,650
    edited November -1
    I never mail ordered, but I walked in an bought some from them at the shop in Eastlake. I never went back cause the bullets sucked. The "copper plated" ones leaded terrible and smoked worse than 1986 dodge minivan.

    They sold me some "once fired" processed, and primed 10mm brass that caused my 1006 smith to spontaneously dissassemble.
  • AllenoAlleno Member Posts: 275 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Years ago I used some of there bullets, I always thought they worked just fine. However now all I reload are Oregon Trail Laser cast. They are very hard so you get NO leading, even in 357 mag loadings. THey are priced right and a quality bullet. I to have heard bad things lately about National Bullet Co, sounds like they are going downhill fast.
  • 45gunner45gunner Member Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the help everyone, I will shop elsewhere.
  • glabrayglabray Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullets from National Bullet have by far the greatest variability in weight that I have ever measured.
  • glabrayglabray Member Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullets from National Bullet have by far the greatest variability in weight that I have ever measured.
  • gary0529gary0529 Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is not a new problem with NBC.
    Check out other forums and you will find PAGES of complaints and rip offs from this company.
    Stay away!!!
    Will second the sources mentioned above-plenty of other places to get good quality bullets without the hassle.
  • bufordsdadbufordsdad Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I placed an order with NBC on 12/24/06 due to a big sale they were having. They must have sold out, because I have yet to get my ammo. I have called over 20 times and sent a number of e-mails. This company is being ran by the biggest liars in Ohio. I have heard a different lie with each call. I was told they had mailed my refund check 4 weeks ago. Pretty poor mailing system, 4 weeks from Ohio to TN. I could have walked and hand carried it is that time. Just another lie from Ken. I am in the process of taking legal action at this time and I urge all who have been ripped off by this company to do the same. The gun industry does not need to be tainted by low lifes like these.
  • RugershooterRugershooter Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    After two successful transactions with them, they turned on me and took my money (May 2006) and have not delivered the product (which was on sale) nor have they sent the refund they promised (May 21, 2007) and claimed was in the mail on 6 June.

    DO NOT ORDER ANYTHING FROM NATIONAL BULLET COMPANY[V]

    Case turned over to AG of Ohio for assistance. National Bullet ignored the Cleveland BBB query.

    There are 48 cases with the AG of Ohio against them (see the website: https://agcares.ag.state.oh.us - search for consumer complaints and enter 'Bullet' in the window) and about the same number with the BBB of Cleveland (http://www.cleveland.bbb.org/reports/comreps.asp).[:(]
  • schiltkrautschiltkraut Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    National Bullet's articles of incorporation were revoked by the Ohio Secretary of State on January 4, 2007 for failure to file tax reports or pay taxes. [Document ID no. 200700580048].

    The Ohio Attorney General's Office has logged nearly 80 complaints in just the last 18 months against this business. (New cases coming in 1 or 2 a day.) Virtually all of them for "failure to deliver product or service."

    The Cleveland office of the Better Business Bureau lists about 75 complaints going back over the last three years.

    In April 2007 Ken Bayko, the owner of National Bullet, transferred title to his home out of his own name and solely into the name of his wife, Norma Bayko. That residence is located at 34971 Glen Drive, Eastlake, Ohio 44095. Home phone (440) 951-7111.

    All of the above is public record.

    There could be other reasons for the title transfer on Bayko's house, but the one that comes to mind is he's trying to shield his assets from creditors.

    Although Bayko's website displays the Visa and MasterCard logos, he does not accept such credit card payments. Instead, he does everything through PayPal. Maybe they should take notice and quit enabling this ongoing fraud.

    If you Google "Ken Bayko," "National Bullet," or "nbcmfg.com" (more about this last one below), you'll find dozens, if not hundreds, of victims who paid for goods which were never received. The story is always the same: No answer to repeated phone calls or emails. Eventually, when you do hear from Ken, you are stalled with promises of refunds, checks in the mail, or products which never appear. After 45 days of this you find out it's too late to pursue a refund through PayPal.

    On August 11, 2007 Bayko registered a new domain name - NBC Manufacturing - as nbcmfg.com. Once again, the website makes it appear that he accepts bank credit cards and even Google Checkout. Guess again -- he is still pulling his con with the assistance of PayPal.

    Unfortunately, I didn't learn about National Bullet before I placed my order and paid through PayPal. I have gotten only one response to my numerous calls and emails to Bayko. In a brief email he said my order will ship out "around this coming Thursday," which is today, December 20, 2007. What do you think my chances are of ever seeing the merchandise?

    I'm not overly optimistic about seeking a refund from PayPal. You see, their Buyer Complaint Policy reads in part: "If we find the complaint in your favor, the amount of the payment, if available from the seller, will be transferred back to your account." The increasing rate of incoming complaints at the AG's office leads me to suspect that Bayko's trying to take in as much as he can before he cleans out his PayPal account. That would mean that the funds "available from the seller" would be zero. Since Bayko no longer has real estate in his name, you'd have to literally find his assets in order to get anything through a civil action.

    As you can see, in this case the PayPal buyer protection we hear so much about is actually only about as good as a used condom. However, what really stuns me is the number of victims I have encountered on other forums who have been ripped off by National Bullet in just the past few months. A good number of them have already complained to PayPal. If PayPal is aware of the problem, then why do they continue to assist Ken Bayko in stealing from people? This is beginning to sound like a class action.

    Tune in later to see how things turns out.
  • schiltkrautschiltkraut Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not much of a surprise -- National Bullet didn't ship my order last Thursday. Ken Bayko didn't return my emails or the phone message I left with his wife at his home number.

    While checking out nationalbullet.com the next day, I was amused to see that Bayko is offering 20% off and free shipping for orders over $100 from now until Christmas. How can he afford such a deal, given current lead and copper costs? Simple: You send the money and he doesn't send anything.

    In looking around on the other forums, I was amazed at how many people have been cheated and how long this has been going on. He not only bones internet buyers, stiffs the Ohio Tax Department, but now also has a lien recorded against him by the Ohio Workers' Compensation Bureau on 11/20/2007. This cloacal parasite needs to be educated.

    Since National Bullet's articles of incorporation were revoked, Bayko is no longer shielded by the corporate veil. This means that he is personally liable for any damages awarded. Somebody needs to take this guy to court and spank him a little bit. Maybe if we rounded up documentation from all the people who've been cheated (on all the different forums), we could interest a local attorney to file multiple actions against Bayko/National Bullet. I'm sure the total dollar amount is considerable. In order to satisfy any judgments obtained, the court could seize Bayko's inventory, equipment, fixtures, personal cars/vessels/furniture, bank/savings/investment accounts, and even the jewelry he's wearing.

    While we're on the topic, there are more than enough victims to make up a class action where PayPal, Inc. is concerned. One thing that's clear from the various forum posts is that a LOT of people have already complained to PayPal about National Bullet. Given this information, how can they justify their continued complicity and involvement with this scam?
  • schiltkrautschiltkraut Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got a message from PayPal this morning saying they cannot take any action re: National Bullet based on "unproven suspicions." Apparently the public records of state governments don't meet the high standards of evidence required by some zit-faced punk in Silicon Valley.

    I've got two regrets now: 1. I didn't research National Bullet before buying; and 2. I didn't read the lengthy fine print conditions behind which PayPal hides. Instead, I just went along with their PR and propaganda about how using PayPal somehow makes internet transactions safer.

    It comes down to this: When you use a bank credit card such as Visa or Mastercard, you can dispute a charge without having to jump through a series of hoops designed to delay your refund. More importantly, your recovery is not limited by the merchant's "available funds," as is the case with PayPal.

    From here I'll see how BankAmerica Visa does with this problem.
  • schiltkrautschiltkraut Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    WHERE TO FILE A COMPLAINT AGAINST NATIONAL BULLET COMPANY

    Here are the websites to lodge your fraud complaints against National Bullet Company and its owner, Kenneth Bayko:

    FBI Internet Crimes Complaint Center: www.ic3.gov

    State of Ohio Attorney General: www.ag.state.oh.us/citizen/consumer/complaints.asp


    If enough people take the time to document a complaint, we're one step closer to shutting down this crooked operation.
  • schiltkrautschiltkraut Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I just checked my VISA balance and saw that they reversed the $239 charge from National Bullet/PayPal on January 16. It only took about 2 weeks and the matter was taken care of. If I had gone through PayPal, I'd still be getting * around with no assurance of recovering my loss.

    I'll say this again: All that "buyer protection" crap you hear from PayPal is nothing more than self-serving propaganda. If you're unlucky enough to still use PayPal, NEVER let them take funds directly from your bank account. ALWAYS fund through a credit card, (as I did), which will actually give you some buyer protection against crooked sellers. Now that VISA got my money back for me, I'll be closing my PayPal account for good. As for Ken Bayko and his National Bullet Company, I wouldn't piss down his throat if his guts were on fire.
  • flyingtorpedoflyingtorpedo Member Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by schiltkraut
    As for Ken Bayko and his National Bullet Company, I wouldn't piss down his throat if his guts were on fire.


    Well I think we know how you feel about Ken and NBC. Glad to hear you got your money back, so you can spend it and actually get some bullets this time.
  • 5mmgunguy5mmgunguy Member Posts: 3,853
    edited November -1
    NEVER use PAYPAL...they are totally antigun!!
  • ladamsladams Member Posts: 604 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I did not think that anyone was allowed to use paypal to sell or purchase any firearms related items anymore.
  • jduncandaltxjduncandaltx Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by schiltkraut
    I just checked my VISA balance and saw that they reversed the $239 charge from National Bullet/PayPal on January 16. It only took about 2 weeks and the matter was taken care of. If I had gone through PayPal, I'd still be getting * around with no assurance of recovering my loss.

    I'll say this again: All that "buyer protection" crap you hear from PayPal is nothing more than self-serving propaganda. If you're unlucky enough to still use PayPal, NEVER let them take funds directly from your bank account. ALWAYS fund through a credit card, (as I did), which will actually give you some buyer protection against crooked sellers. Now that VISA got my money back for me, I'll be closing my PayPal account for good. As for Ken Bayko and his National Bullet Company, I wouldn't piss down his throat if his guts were on fire.


    Schiltkraut and others,

    Followed your posts with great interest as I too placed an order with NBC on January 9th and after several weeks of not receiveing the order I started calling. My experience followed yours and the other posters. I hadn't bothered to check them out as I had placed numerous order with them in the mid '90s with no problems. I got a lot of no answers to my calls; "will ship next week"; "already shipped" (when asked for tracking number, gave me wrong number) until finally on March 5th I gave up and called Citibank and asked them to to a chargeback, which they immediately did.

    Now, I am particularly interested in your comments about PayPal as this was my first time to NOT do the charge directly with the vendor. Just how does PayPal fit into this equation? Your last post seems to indicate that using PayPal WITH your CC, which I did, gives you some recourse to recover your funds. Am I reading that correctly?
  • knucklehead14knucklehead14 Member Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I could be wrong but I think if you use paypal for any kind of firearm transaction (including parts, bullets, brass etc) it can turn into quite a big headache if paypal catches wind of what the transaction was for.
    STAY AWAY FROM PAYPAL!!
  • knucklehead14knucklehead14 Member Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I could be wrong but I think if you use paypal for any kind of firearm transaction (including parts, bullets, brass etc) it can turn into quite a big headache if paypal catches wind of what the transaction was for.
    STAY AWAY FROM PAYPAL!!
  • geeguygeeguy Member Posts: 1,047
    edited November -1
    National bullet is just down the street from me. Last I was there a few weeks ago they were not making anything and only selling off what they had in stock. I'm not sure if you can consider them as "still in business" or not, it appears not. But someone from National may change that statement.

    In any event, it won't do any good to complain. My recommendation is to fine another source.
  • jduncandaltxjduncandaltx Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    An update on my problems with National Bullet and my Citi CC chargeback.

    I spoke with the Disputed Item group at Citibank about whether the charge could come back if PayPal wasn't able to get its money from NBC. They told me that it didn't matter if PayPal got its money or not, the charge came from PayPal and the chargeback would be againt PayPal. So...assuming most CC companies operate the say way, I would say that you will get your money back IF you used a CC for your purchase.
  • dg101windg101win Member Posts: 751 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by schiltkraut
    Not much of a surprise -- National Bullet didn't ship my order last Thursday. Ken Bayko didn't return my emails or the phone message I left with his wife at his home number.

    While checking out nationalbullet.com the next day, I was amused to see that Bayko is offering 20% off and free shipping for orders over $100 from now until Christmas. How can he afford such a deal, given current lead and copper costs? Simple: You send the money and he doesn't send anything.

    In looking around on the other forums, I was amazed at how many people have been cheated and how long this has been going on. He not only bones internet buyers, stiffs the Ohio Tax Department, but now also has a lien recorded against him by the Ohio Workers' Compensation Bureau on 11/20/2007. This cloacal parasite needs to be educated.

    Since National Bullet's articles of incorporation were revoked, Bayko is no longer shielded by the corporate veil. This means that he is personally liable for any damages awarded. Somebody needs to take this guy to court and spank him a little bit. Maybe if we rounded up documentation from all the people who've been cheated (on all the different forums), we could interest a local attorney to file multiple actions against Bayko/National Bullet. I'm sure the total dollar amount is considerable. In order to satisfy any judgments obtained, the court could seize Bayko's inventory, equipment, fixtures, personal cars/vessels/furniture, bank/savings/investment accounts, and even the jewelry he's wearing.

    While we're on the topic, there are more than enough victims to make up a class action where PayPal, Inc. is concerned. One thing that's clear from the various forum posts is that a LOT of people have already complained to PayPal about National Bullet. Given this information, how can they justify their continued complicity and involvement with this scam?


    In reference to seizing his personal assetts he has already moved evrything to his wifes name. This was reported on another forum last year.
  • schiltkrautschiltkraut Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Re: The Walking Sphincter at National Bullet

    Paypal always pushes you to directly fund your purchase from your bank account. Instead, I always used my VISA card option for Paypal buying & I'm glad I did. (I've since terminated both my eBay and Paypal accounts.)

    If you try to get your money back through Paypal, they make you agree not to go after them with a bank chargeback. To that I say nonsense! Within two weeks of contacting VISA I had my money back. VISA didn't go after National Bullet, they charged it to Paypal. That put a smile on my face, since you know that Paypal had to eat the cost of doing business with National Bullet.

    Apparently some people in the industry are starting to figure it out. I checked National Bullet's website a few days ago and found that they are down to accepting payment only by check or money order. Even though the web page still displays the VISA and MC logos, no credit card company will do business with them any longer. Apparently even the bottom feeders at Paypal finally came around.
  • 3ME3ME Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    He got me too:

    NBC Manufacturing charged my credit card $299.60 for an order for 6 boxes (500 count each) of 230 Grain .45 Cal RN Hard Cast bullets on January 2, 2008. This order was placed in late December 2007 on the website for National Bullet Company at www.nationalbullet.com.

    After multiple telephone calls and leaving voicemail messages, I finally received an email from kbayko@americech.net on February 27, 2008 promising that the order would be shipped the following Monday (March 3, 2008), and that he would email me the tracking information.

    I still have not received the bullets, nor have I been provided any tracking information that they might be on the way. I have called and left messages at (440) 951-1854, (440) 975-4812 and (440) 951-7111 requesting to resolve this issue. I have never received the courtesy of a return call.

    Performing a simple Google search for "National Bullet Company" returns a series of hits from various sites where hundreds of customers are reporting the same experiences and issues, beginning around 2006. This is not an isolated incident and shows a propensity for lies and outright fraud. The website remains in operation and has in fact, updated the prices several times since my order to reflect current ?_ospecials?__ and an overall price increase to the increased costs of lead. The ?_oWho Is?__ information for the domain name or nationabullet.com has been recently changed from Ken Bayko to ?_oprivate?__ in an effort to conceal ownership identity.
  • jduncandaltxjduncandaltx Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by 3ME
    He got me too:

    NBC Manufacturing charged my credit card $299.60 for an order for 6 boxes (500 count each) of 230 Grain .45 Cal RN Hard Cast bullets on January 2, 2008. This order was placed in late December 2007 on the website for National Bullet Company at www.nationalbullet.com. [end quote]

    3ME,

    See my earlier post about getting your money back. Contact your CC bank and ask them to do a chargeback on the purchase due to non-delivery. They will probably want you to file a paper followup but you shouldn't have any problem getting the charge reversed, even if it was through PayPal. Good luck.
  • 5mmgunguy5mmgunguy Member Posts: 3,853
    edited November -1
    Stay away from these guys, they are bad news!!!
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