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 Reloaded case necks splitting during storage?
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2016 :  5:38:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone ever seen such a thing???

30:06 hulls neck split while in the box and they are only 6 years old.
Been fired as factory round in gun then neck sized only.

Load is 150g sierra spritzer #2130 bullet
H4831SC 58.5g
OAL+ 3.20 inches

40 were reloaded in 2010 and when I went to inspect cases for hunting I seen a green corrosion on the brass necks and several of the brass necks were cracked. The green blue corrosion was readily visible in the cracks.
When I pulled the bullets the lead base of the bullets had the green blue corrosion. It kinda appeared maybe the corrosion had started at the bullet base and migrated to the neck of the brass case and expanded the case neck enough to crack. One of the split necks was vertical and slightly horizontal and the brass was very brittle on this one and flaked off (broke off instead of bending) when I pulled on it with a fingernail. After the case necks cracked the bullets were very loose in the neck which was too be expected. The reloads were stored in two plastic holder Federal OEM bullet boxes.

I know that the case necks were not cracked when I seated the bullets because I reload with a single stage press and can feel the neck tension on the bullets when I reload and a split neck will feel less resistance when seating the bullet.

Anyone ever hear of such?

Edited by - Okie743 on 11/28/2016 5:48:33 PM

243winxb
Junior Member

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2016 :  10:01:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Season cracking. Brass may have not been properly annealed.

Or it came in contact with ammonia fumes.

How the brass was cleaned before reloading can do it. Vinegar should be avoided also.
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sandwarrior
Advanced Member

USA
5552 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2016 :  5:44:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okie743,

Brass does age harden. I've had what you have on a number of older cases. Most notably 8mm and 7.62x54R Russian. Both origninal stock, not reloaded.

The thing I've found is that it's typically lower quality brass that does it. Most of the stuff I've had reloaded for years has not done it, even with multiple reloadings. During the election shortages, many of us have noted lower quality brass from previously better quality companies.

I do get split necks on my reloads but they typically only get split necks during firing. But, the cause is the same (relatively). It's old brass that has been hardened too much and had to handle firing or sorting stresses. Or, the stress of too much neck tension over time.



Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.
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bpost
Advanced Member

Azerbaijan
38344 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2016 :  10:07:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There was also a bad batch of bullets from someone, I think it was Hornaday, but I could be mistaken. they had green corrosion oozing out of the bases in the box when opened up brand new.

I am a practicing Curmudgeon, someone that hates hypocrisy and pretense and has the temerity to say so.



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yonson
Junior Member

483 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  8:27:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look up "season cracking" on Wikipedia. Exposure to ammonia in the atmosphere or from using brass polishes containing ammonia (Brasso, Flitz) can cause this.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  9:54:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by yonson

Look up "season cracking" on Wikipedia. Exposure to ammonia in the atmosphere or from using brass polishes containing ammonia (Brasso, Flitz) can cause this.



Very interesting read. Ageing and stress cracking not all that uncommon with Brass.
Did not realize such.
I'll have to do some inspecting of my older reloads and watch future reloads and keep on dating the reloads. I have some brass stored in zip lock bags vs in shell boxes can also compare.
I do use the Lyman walnut shell brass polishing media for the hulls that has the red rouge color, but I never use any additives to the media.

Arkie
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norgexxx
New Member

USA
82 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2016 :  11:16:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They should not crack for 'age hardening' and that is a non-issue, as, hard or not, they had to have pressure applied to crack. The pressure came from something that developed after loading. If stored in the case in a 'bullet-up' position, then the corrosion developed in the case neck and ran down-hill to the bullet base. If stored bullet-down, then it could have developed on the bullet base and ran downhill into the neck, but...it begs the question what was on the bullet? Usually the lead in copper-jacketed bullets is pure lead, and not an alloy, and since lead does not lend itself to developing corrosion, it would be safe to assume that something either reacted with the copper jacket and flowed downhill into the neck (if upside down). The more likely scenario is the bullets were stored 'bullet-up' and there was something present on the copper jacket that IN COMBINATION with the copper and brass caused a caustic reaction to occur (search: corrosion between metallic surfaces) since normally copper and brass do not react. The presence of a third agent is more than likely the culprit that caused this, with the resulting corrosion running down to the base of the bullet where contact with the lead ended the reaction. The corrosion is also what weakened the brass in one spot and let it crack there. I will not assume to tell you what to do, but if it were me; I would pull the bullets, wash and reuse. The remainder I would discard as there could be corrosion present in the powder and all case necks could be weakend, either situation could cause problems both minor or serious. Could have been something as simple as some residue from some cola (or other soda) on your hands when you picked up the bullets for seating, or even some soap residues after washing your hands, or waterless 'hand sanitizer', as they have been known to do strange things to metals over time. Most reloaders fail to realize the absolute neccessity of clean hands when reloading until something like this happens, and they can't figure out why. I'm no genius either, as I learned this lesson myself the hard way years ago! Learning from you mistakes doesn't make you smart, only normal, the trick is to learn from other peoples mistakes. Wash you hands, then wipe with a alcohol based sterile wipe, then handle bullets when seating. Or...not.

Throughout human affairs, one dominant, genetically verifiable 'race' has controlled all forms of government. This race is commonly known as 'idiots'.

Revolution is nothing more then the sudden, and unexpected change in the form of misgovernment.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2017 :  9:28:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
more info:
Got to inspect further. 40 rounds of reloads all reloaded at same time in 2010. Only about 10 rounds unfired and 4 are severely corroded and when I pulled the bullets on the corroded ones and dumped the H4831sc powder and looked inside with a light can see severe corrosion inside the walls of the corroded case and several powder granules stuck to the walls of the corroded cases and the bases of the jacketed bullets have thick blue/green corrosion but appears to be maybe due to a reaction of the powder and the brass. I sent a email to Hornady asking their opinion about such but no answer back yet. All of the brass is Remington.
I may have to slit a case for closer examination. Maybe some sort of brass and powder reaction??????(strange that the powder granules are stuck to the sides of the brass hull)

I pulled a bullet on a case that appeared ok by viewing on the outside and no corrosion inside and no powder stuck to the walls of the case and no signs of corrosion anywhere.

????????

Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 01/18/2017 9:32:23 PM
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2017 :  8:56:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
another update:

I checked several other reloads today and seen some more of the reloads that are about 7-10 years old with the blue/green corrosion around the bullet at the neck AND EVERY ONE OF THEM that had the blue/green WAS LOADED WITH H4831 powder. 264 win magnum, 7mm wby magnum, 6mm, and another 30:06.

Some of these same calibers and other calibers were of the same age or older reloads and not a single one of the other reloads with a different powder showed any sign of corrosion.

H4831 appears to be contributing to the corrosion?????

I'll make a phone call to Hodgdons in few days if they don't answer my email and see if I can get them to take a interest.



Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 02/18/2017 08:21:50 AM
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243winxb
Junior Member

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2017 :  1:36:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any idea how old the H4831SC is? High heat will make it age real fast.

Edited by - 243winxb on 01/21/2017 1:36:58 PM
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2017 :  8:34:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 243winxb

Any idea how old the H4831SC is? High heat will make it age real fast.



When it was reloaded from one pound jugs it was fresh stuff.

In the corrosion in the reloads it's same age as the reloads 6-10 years old.

Not ever subjected to heat by me.

I'm trying to get in contact with someone from Hodgdons. I sent them a email, but will probably have to invest in a phone call.

NOTE: I'm not saying it's entirely the powders fault. (might be a combination of media dust, H4831 coating, and brass combo????
H4831 is one of my favorite powders for larger calibers.
Inside some of the stored brass cases that have not been reloaded I can see the Walnut shell red rouge dust inside from when they were final polished. I'm wondering if maybe some reaction from the polishing media and a coating on the H4831 powder and brass combo is causing such. H4831 powder granules are stuck to the inside sides of the hulls, like granules are melted to the inside of the brass hull and the blu/green readily apparent inside from such.
Every corroded hull that I have found has H4831 or H4831sc. Several other reloads with other powders as old or older do not show any sign of corrosion.

Arkie
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JustC
Moderator

15658 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2017 :  11:01:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you rinse your cases after polishing??

What Brass polish??

storage conditions of the powder?

applying physics over great expanses,...gotta love the long shots

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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2017 :  08:19:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JustC

Do you rinse your cases after polishing?? NO

What Brass polish??
Lyman Turbo Brass Cleaning Media Treated Tufnut (Walnut)
This is type media that has the aggravating red rouge powder that will cling to the inside of the brass cases.


When inspecting my spare brass cases and looking inside the cases with a light I can see the red rouge residue inside the stored cases and stuck (clinging) to the internal sides and neck. A Q-tip will not simply remove all the redness in the neck area so I did additional internal cleaning of some of the spare brass by installing a bore brush in a rcbs trim mate and preliminary cleaning, then re-cycling the brass using corn cob media in my lyman turbo tumbler for approx. 3 hour run. (the redness inside the brass necks could not be simply removed by using a Q tip.


storage conditions of the powder?
The H-4831 powder was/is stored inside house at room temperature. (controlled environment of around 70 degrees at all times) Powder came from one pound jugs and when inspecting other brass cases the powder in the corroded cases was not all from the same one pound jug lot number. I did not log the lot numbers in use. (I've since started adding the powder lot number to my reload logs)

It appears as though MAYBWE the combination of the FACTORY TREATED red rouge type walnut media powdery substance inside the brass hulls and the H4831 powder is the combo that causes the corrosion issue or the brass. I surmised this conclusion from closely inspecting several other rifle reloads that are of the same age or older and stored under same conditions and NONE
of the other type powders had any hint of any blue/green corrosion.
Other reload powders were H4350, IMR4350, H4895, 5744 and others.

Only brass cases that were reloaded with H4831 powder was found to have the blue/green corrosion.
The powder granules inside the corroded cases will not simply dump out when the bullet is pulled, the H4831 powder granules are STUCK to the sides of the brass cases.(look like they are somewhat glued to the sides of the brass hulls)

Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 02/19/2017 08:23:03 AM
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hillbille
Advanced Member

8525 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2017 :  08:56:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
you may try reloading a few both ways, then shake them every month or so, if it is setting up/solidifying you would be able to find out. may even load a few with extra polishing powder to see if it does speed up the corrosion..
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2017 :  09:34:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hillbille

you may try reloading a few both ways, then shake them every month or so, if it is setting up/solidifying you would be able to find out. may even load a few with extra polishing powder to see if it does speed up the corrosion.


It's seems to be a slow corrosion process because most of the blue/green corroded reloads are around 10 years old. I might fill some of the red rouge cases with the powder and no bullet a place them on shelf and check every once in awhile by dumping the powder and inspecting.
Might even mix some of the red granulated walnut media with the powder
inside the brass cases and also try the same with factory NEW brass that I have not used in the red walnut polishing media.
???

In meantime I'm looking for accurate hunting loads using H4350 powder and cleaning the red rouge contaminate brass real good before reloading using the corn cob media.
Sure is a mess, I have several different hunting rifle calibers (lots of it neck sized only for specific guns) and reloads that I'm seeing this blue/green corrosion of the brass. One good thing is I only reload for myself and my son and have ALWAYS refused to reload for anyone else. I tell them to buy new ammo for hunting or get into reloading their own ammo and go into the reloading hobby as a nice Hobby to enjoy if they appreciate accuracy or doing a lot of shooting.

I sent a email to Hodgdons about this issue sometime ago, but they are not going to answer in writing.
I might give Hodgdons a phone call some day when rain or snow has me inside and I'm not re-working my reloads.

Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 02/19/2017 09:55:15 AM
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  09:05:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AND: more info

Shot some of the H4831 approx. 10 year old visible blue/green corroded brass reloads yesterday in a 264 Winchester Magnum and out of about 20 rounds, about 4 rounds snapped, primers did not even pop, about 4 rounds had delayed ignition, similar to Black powder.
Shot some IMR4350 that was same age and no visible signs of brass corrosion and all grouped and shot ok.

Will be in slow process of culling out the H4831 powder reloads of several calibers

What a mess!!!!!!!!!!!

Arkie
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243winxb
Junior Member

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  8:43:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I no longer load to many rounds ahead of time.

i keep brass ready to load, only needing powder and a bullet.

Had some IMR 4895 go bad, in the metal can, before. Glad it wasn't in loaded ammo.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2017 :  12:36:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 243winxb

I no longer load to many rounds ahead of time.

i keep brass ready to load, only needing powder and a bullet.

Had some IMR 4895 go bad, in the metal can, before. Glad it wasn't in loaded ammo.



I'll start doing the same and phasing out H4831.

I'm seeing at least a 50% failure rate in 10 year old H4831 reloaded ammo, either the ammo primer snaps, delayed ignition or brass being corroded and weakened by blue/green corrosion. Corrosion really bad inside some of the brass and the brass hull severely weakened.

Arkie
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2017 :  12:59:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still pulling bullets on several calibers and find blue/green corrosion inside the H4831 and H4831sc brass hulls and on the base of the copper jacketed bullets and some of the reloads are 7 years young, the real severe stuff is 10 years old or older.
The reloads that are corroded worst have a yellow sulfur looking powder granules and the powder smells like vinegar and powder granules stuck too the side of the brass internally and looks like granules about 1/2 melted or dissolved that are in contact with the sides of the brass hull. Some of the ones that have just started corroding at about 7 years old the powder is still black color and minor internal corrosion. (corrosion is starting)

I've checked several reloads of different calibers that use other type powders of the same age or older and no corrosion.

Draw your own conclusions.
I'm no longer using H4831 powder for reloads.
Thinking of trying little bit of the H4831 around wifes tomatoes plants as fertilizer this year and see if it turns the red tomatoes back to green or corrodes the plants. I don't eat tomatoes.

Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 03/26/2017 1:04:59 PM
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nyforester
Advanced Member

USA
2550 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2017 :  9:28:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My ammo usually does not last more than 1 year. You gotta get out and shoot more - don't hord

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2017 :  08:07:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nyforester

My ammo usually does not last more than 1 year. You gotta get out and shoot more - don't hord



You would have laughed if you witnessed me trying to shoot some of this H4831 blue/green reloaded ammo, primers snapping, delayed ignition, what a mess.

I've got some Factory 35 Remington caliber and 30:40 Craig that is probably around 100 years old and still good ammo.(and some reloads with other type powders that are around 15 years old and ok)

Yep, do not hoard H4831 reloads.

But our previous elected politicians (Nancy's and Pansies) that had no balls and getting re-elected by stupid brainless voters led me to think I might need some ammo. Now that the MOTHER OF ALL BOMBS (MOAB) is being deployed against the underground goat lovers I'll cut back on the hoarding, now that we have a leader that has some real balls and knows how to use them. (without mentioning names)

If they come after your guns, give them your bullets first, but beware of duds if they are loaded with H4831.


Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 04/17/2017 08:18:45 AM
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charliemeyer007
Advanced Member

USA
5787 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2017 :  10:14:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree they can have mine when it snaps empty after I run out of well place ammo.

Having shot several 100 pounds of H4831 and H4895 I can tell you storage conditions make all the difference. It is not just after you load your ammo, but the from when it was manufactured.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2017 :  11:08:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

I agree they can have mine when it snaps empty after I run out of well place ammo.

Having shot several 100 pounds of H4831 and H4895 I can tell you storage conditions make all the difference. It is not just after you load your ammo, but the from when it was manufactured.



I've shot a lot of the H4831 myself and next to H4350 it WAS one of my favorite powders for the bigger caliber rifles.
This ammo was stored in a controlled environment indoors and some inside sealed zip lock bags and was starting to indicate the going bad, the worst looking ammo was some rounds that we had carried on hunting trips in a vehicle and going from outside to inside hot to cold places in winter time that was not in a controlled environment.

The powder kinda looked like it had attracted moisture or maybe the brass sweated internally then the combo of moisture and chemicals in the powder attacked the brass hull and the copper jacket of the bullets. In the worst ones that I pulled the bullets the powder granules were melted and stuck to the side of the brass case and turning the brass and the base of the copper jacketed bullet BLUE/Green. Some of the primers would not even pop in the real bad ones that had the melted powder granules inside stuck to the sides of the brass case. I have reloads that are older than these H4831 reloads with several other powders and none of them show any signs of such. I'm in slow process of accuracy testing H4350 and H1000 in the large calibers as a replacement for the H4831 because I have some old reloads with these two powders that shows no signs of corrosion..

Arkie
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charliemeyer007
Advanced Member

USA
5787 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2017 :  1:48:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I was about 12 (late 60's) my Dad handed me a canvas sack of loose 1915 or 1918 of Olympic Match 30-06 with one 20 round paper box so marked. Every one of those that fired were 7 to 9 seconds of hang. I got pretty good at the delay. Later we pulled the few rounds that were actual duds, green slime powder. Some folks say they never made Olympic Match, I say they didn't make a lot of it.

A few years later, I started shooting pulled 172/173 grain boat tails on top of H4831 I bought in paper sacks from the "super store" for $2/#. The bullets were a penny each and there was a 5 gallon bucket of them.

After they were gone, I shot away a 5 gallon bucket of pulled tracers. I would light one bullet with a propane torch, then butt a second bullet into the first burning one. When the second one caught I would toss the first one into a 5 gallon bucket of water and let it swim around until it burnt out. I'd leave the burned out tracers on the patio concrete for a few days in the hot sun to dry out before loading them. They shot just fine.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2017 :  11:58:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seen a write up in NRA American Rifleman July 2017 this month titled KEEP IT COOL by Charles E. Petty,
pg 44.

Guy asking about safe temperatures for storage of ammo.

In summary Petty replies that Nitrocellulose, the primary ingredient in smokeless powder is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air that can affect both shelf life and burn rate. Coating and stabilizers are added to the powder to prevent this. Unfortunately the effectiveness of these compounds is reduced as the temp rises.
Standard advice is to store powders at around 70 degrees F.

I've seen moisture form inside plastic zip lock bags that I had stored reloaded ammo with H4831 powder. The plastic zip loc bags will also increase the inside temp when placed in the sun really fast. (sun shining thru the plastic similar to going thru glass)
Appeared maybe the powder was drawing moisture into the plastic bag and the plastic bag also preventing the moisture from evaporating rapidly.


Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 07/24/2017 06:17:20 AM
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fr1939
Starting Member

USA
14 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2017 :  7:36:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm late to this discussion but wanted to say that I'm had the same thing happen with .223 and .17 Mach IV loads. Two things were different besides the calibers and that was the powder, as all of mine were loaded with Vihtavuori 130, and they were subjected to hot weather before being stored for a number of years before I found the corrosion. Lake City '82 brass and the formed Mach IV didn't crack any more than the 5.56 reloaded as .223s. We've loaded 10,000 plus of the .223s over the last 30 years and that is the only case of corrosion every to rear it's ugly head.

I cleaned up a slightly corroded .223 and fired it and promptly froze the bolt on a Sako Varmint rifle. All of it was gathered up and unloaded. Most necks were cracked so bad that you could push on it with you thumb and snap the neck and bullet off. My face and fingers and still being used plus I like my rifle so no need to cheap out on a few bucks worth of ammo.

I still had some of the 130 in it's factory container and it had no sign of break down or odor change. It to is now lawn feed.

Get behind early, then you have more time to catch up.
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243winxb
Junior Member

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2017 :  7:58:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


Load and shoot, no more storage for me.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2017 :  08:04:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
243winxb

Thanks for your input.

Several of my corroded cases of H4831 were NEVER subjected to hot temps. Stored inside at controlled temp of 60-75 degrees. It's a fault of the powder being hydroscopic.
What a mess.

Was my favorite large caliber powder for good accuracy.



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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2018 :  5:53:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is continuation of info that came from a recently locked topic here.
I could not readily find my thread in Competition shooting and reloading.
My response to the last locked topic. (in ask the experts)
http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=685786

quote:
Originally posted by pip5255

sounds like the powder is chemically reacting to the brass, normally it will be something else that triggers the reaction like a cleaning agent and the chemicals react and attack the metal.

liability for such falls upon the manufacturer that being you the reloader that made the ammunition.....................



Right:
All I know is it's all common to the powder H4831 I used.)
Several other re-loads prepared the same way and at same time, stored and used same way with no issues at all with all same components except use of different powder. And this was not from just one lot number of the H4831 Powder, several different lots. I was really lucky that I got out without being injured. A powder chemist with Hodgdons would most likely know the 9or a) ingredient of this particular powder that would cause such but would never speak out loud.

I've saved several of the corroded stuff as proof and reminders of such. Another reason I only re-load for myself for last 20 plus years.
It's all my fault because I prepared the recipe for my re-loads.

I post up some pictures of the corroded reloads one of these days.

Arkie
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charliemeyer007
Advanced Member

USA
5787 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2018 :  6:44:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All nitro powders will at some point go bad. I shot up the last of the pink dot (was really old red dot from the early 60's or perhaps the late 50's) I got from dad in my model 60. No issues. As kid back in the early 70's I had a mayo jar of 5010 recovered from 50 BMG that had laid out on the ground for years in the Idaho training range. The temp varied from over 100 in the summer to below zero in the winter. I kept the jar inside the house and in the dark. It took many years for the powder to start to go bad. It turned red(ish) and started to smell bad.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2018 :  11:55:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
more info here at this link from the experts section.

guy claims similar issue with H4350


https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=708459

sts

Posted - 03/26/2018 : 08:17:03 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote Delete Reply

[quote]Originally posted by pulsarnc

Recently had the same issue with 300 win mag loaded with some h4350 Lots of corrosion split necks and clumped up powder some of the blue green corrosion was visible around the primers company has been notified of problem awaiting word from them
[/quote

That is what I've seen with the H4831. I do know the H4831 will attract moisture (hygroscopic) and just a guess but suspect something similar to ammonia maybe.



]Did you contact Hodgdon's by phone, email, or ???

I've got several calibers re-loaded with H4350 and some of them are 15 years old or older of several different calibers and powder lots and not any sign of corrosion and the reloads stored and treated same as the H4831 that is corroding and I just recently used H4350 as a replacement for some H4831 in 06 reloads.

PM me or let me know what you find out from who you contacted?

Here is a link to more info about such. I placed info over at the other forum so as it would not get locked.

https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=685785
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gunnut505
Advanced Member

USA
10233 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2018 :  5:08:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a thought, but since the corrosion is inside the cases; could it be your expanding die grease?
And, isn't the cartridge essentially airtight?
That would indicate that whatever happens is caused by the loading process.
You stated that you'd seen zipper bags of ammo with moisture inside, is it extraordinarily humid where you load?
Were the primers from the same lot? Have you cleaned your dies in the last year? Do your hands sweat a lot when you're loading?

I've got a bunch of .308 & 30-30 from 1991 that were made with 4831 that have no defects so far, and I have 300WM stuff from earlier than that, but they're full of H414.
Look in the holes in your loading block, there might be something there, or on the expander ball, that shouldn't be there.
Think about where you normally put the bullets when you're seating them; stand 'em up, lay 'em down, hold 'em in your hand, start the bullet in the loading block, it might help.

"Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit" --OVID

"It never hurts to help!"--EEEK the Cat
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2018 :  7:20:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gunnut505

Just a thought, but since the corrosion is inside the cases; could it be your expanding die grease?
And, isn't the cartridge essentially airtight?
That would indicate that whatever happens is caused by the loading process.
You stated that you'd seen zipper bags of ammo with moisture inside, is it extraordinarily humid where you load?
Were the primers from the same lot? Have you cleaned your dies in the last year? Do your hands sweat a lot when you're loading?

I've got a bunch of .308 & 30-30 from 1991 that were made with 4831 that have no defects so far, and I have 300WM stuff from earlier than that, but they're full of H414.
Look in the holes in your loading block, there might be something there, or on the expander ball, that shouldn't be there.
Think about where you normally put the bullets when you're seating them; stand 'em up, lay 'em down, hold 'em in your hand, start the bullet in the loading block, it might help.



Thought of all of that. Only thing common to this mess is the H4831.
When I seen the moisture inside the zip lock bag with some shells some of the brass cases were split at the necks and the moisture was also in the powder and I seen signs of moist and glued together powder granules and blu/green in shells that were in paper and styrafoam shell boxes still indicating the H4831 was corroding and taking on moisture.

Several different calibers, several different primers, several different brass cases, reload in control environment inside, only thing common to all is H4831. No other powders show any signs of such.

Some of the H4831 reloads did not indicate any outside signs of blu/green until I pulled a bullet and examined. Could see blu/green just starting on the base of the copper jacketed bullets on some and powder granules just starting to weld together.
I've got some re-loads as old as yours or older with other [powders and no problems.

If you get a chance pull couple of your bullets and take a gander.

Maybe the guy that contacted Hodgdens about his H4350 (which I have several reloads of with no issues at all) will let us know the results. I gave up on trying to get a response or answer from Hodgdens and I just accepted the fact that it's MY reloads and I caused it, it's notnot factory stuff.

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pip5255
Advanced Member

USA
7671 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2018 :  6:31:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the blue/green is the oxidation of the copper used in making the alloy brass, generally this is caused by environmental issues like extreme conditions but also a chemical reaction will cause oxidation.
I believe the 4831 chemical composition contains a chemical that either attacks that alloy type brass or you the manufacturer caused it by some type of additional chemical coming into contact with the 4831.
I would recommend better cleaning processes for your brass and/or possibly coating brass. I would also notify the powder maker.

tired not retired !
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2018 :  08:28:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pip5255

the blue/green is the oxidation of the copper used in making the alloy brass, generally this is caused by environmental issues like extreme conditions but also a chemical reaction will cause oxidation.
I believe the 4831 chemical composition contains a chemical that either attacks that alloy type brass or you the manufacturer caused it by some type of additional chemical coming into contact with the 4831.
I would recommend better cleaning processes for your brass and/or possibly coating brass. I would also notify the powder maker.



To me it appears to be similar to brass and copper being exposed to a chemical similar ammonia vapor.
Agree to a point:
Yes, the H4831 and I are common to all the corrosion seen on the brass and COPPER jacketed bullets. I've ruled out myself as the cause when I noticed no other powders have cause the corrosion of same type brass, bullets and primers.

As for the cleaning process of the brass for example. This reloading of the H4831 did not take place from just one batch of H4831 and the cleaning process of the brass is not the same over the years, for example I've used different brands and types cleaning media's in the lyman vibrator case cleaner brass and also cleaned using a ultrasonic and the corrosion also attacks new never fired brass straight from the manu, Remington, Winchester, Federal brass and Sierra and Hornady copper jacketed bullets.
Different reload over at least a 5 years span using different products, common thing is me and the H4831 and no corrosion of other reloads has taken place with any powder types.

I tried reaching out to Hodgdons by email and no response which was no surprise.

The corrosion is not from just one lot of H4831 ,several different one pound cannisters were used. That is the weak link in my re-loading data and one of the first things Hodgdons is going to ask, what is the lot number from the powder in question?
When it became one of my favorite reloading powders over a approx. 15 year span I quit logging the lot number from the one pound cannister into my reloading data. I did write the date that the reloads were prepared and the 1 pound canister was dated when I purchased and the powder cannister stored in a inside controlled environment and very seldom over 2 years old. I recently (couple weeks ago) found where I did log 2 different lots numbers of H4831 onto reloaded ammo boxes and both lots numbers indicated corroded ammo)

I now log the lot number of each reloading powder that I use into my load log book and onto the reloaded ammo. When I first started reloading I logged all the batch numbers from powders and primers per recommend3ed reloading procedures and finally I decided it appeared I was keeping too much info, just filling up the pages in my reloading log book. (I now see when re-loading you cannot log too much info because you might need such (batch and lot numbers) SEVERAL YEARS LATER.

Edited by - Okie743 on 04/20/2018 12:02:45 PM
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pulsarnc
Advanced Member

USA
2648 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2018 :  9:09:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okie 743 here is a follow up my buddy talked to the powder company last week . He gave them the info on the corrosion issues and the lot number from the one pound jug we had loaded some of the round s with . They acknowledged a problem with that lot number with one of the stabilizers going bad . They are sending us two pounds of new powder to use hope this helps

don't pick a fight with an old man ,if he is to old to fight he will just shoot you
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2018 :  08:49:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pulsarnc

Okie 743 here is a follow up my buddy talked to the powder company last week . He gave them the info on the corrosion issues and the lot number from the one pound jug we had loaded some of the round s with . They acknowledged a problem with that lot number with one of the stabilizers going bad . They are sending us two pounds of new powder to use hope this helps



Thanks for the come back info.

So it was a one pound jug instead of a 8 lb jug. A 8lb jug was mentioned here in the ask experts section is why I referred to such.
https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=708459
I've been using H4350 for several years and some of my NEW re-loads to replace the corrosive H4831 is H4350. I've never seen any evidence of any of my H4350 reloads being corrosive but I'll keep a heads up about such.
I'm little (pleasantly) surprised that the powder maker would admit to such. Stabilizers are added to reduce the effects of the powder becoming corrosive. After seeing the info at this link ammo should be inspected and heads up even on factory ammo. About half way thru this link stabilizers are mentioned quite often.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820


I could not trust any reloads with FREE H4831 powder if offered ever again after the very dangerous situation I experienced and I'll keep a closer eye on all future reloads and also start keeping lot numbers of all components in my log book for each rifle's reloads.


Edited by - Okie743 on 04/08/2018 11:53:17 AM
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243winxb
Junior Member

USA
248 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2018 :  4:52:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Modern powders have lots of new components that extend life. Less copper fouling.

Most sites like Hodgdon/Alliant list the MSDS or SDS of there powders.


A good read. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/McCord_gunpowder/

Edited by - 243winxb on 04/10/2018 4:54:36 PM
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1773 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2018 :  7:34:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 243winxb

Modern powders have lots of new components that extend life. Less copper fouling.

Most sites like Hodgdon/Alliant list the MSDS or SDS of there powders.


A good read. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/McCord_gunpowder/



Thanks for the info.

Bottom line: My powder went bad and we were lucky to not get injured.

Kinda appears the stabilizers became unstable.
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