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Aluminum welders, some stupid questions

Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
edited June 2019 in General Discussion
Ok, I didn?t post about this when it happened, surprise eh!! I know, I?m such a drama * and this would have been posted immediatly. But let?s say the anger I had to squash, the feelings of hopelessness, staring into the pit of possible failure (not past that yet) and the inability to put this into words and knowing I just had to deal with it kept me at that silent angry place.

It was my fault, I screwed up. I can tell you why, but it won?t matter.

Anyhow, I had to cut a section of my trailers rub rail out and am in the process of fitting a new patch. I am going to bolt it in using stainless steel hardware. Exposed half of each crossmember at the ends after cutting out the damage so it will be bolted with existing structure.

As you can see on the top of the rubrail it is going to cover some insulation. Not sure if the factory stuff is flammable but the stuff I sprayed in there is.

I know I can have the lower joints welded but the top run needs welded but will be in the insulation. I have experiance welding steel but not aluminum.

Does aluminum welding create heat as hot as welding steel?

Is there an alternative to welding to join to top edge of the new panel?

In order to make it 100% safe I would have to cut out a section of interior wall and remove the insulation, I?m not doing that since there is no damage to the interior.

Yes and no on this being a structural section, it is not the only support for the wall but is part of it. Bolting it to the crossmembers and using two bolt holes on non damaged rail and crossmembers will allow this new piece to do it?s job. I?m just concerned about not welding the top edge where I had to cut a section out.

Reccomendations?

Oh, I will not be doing the welding, I am not set up for aluminum, mig only and I don?t think that will work tol well .

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Comments

  • 11b6r11b6r Member Posts: 16,588 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    DISCLAIMER- I AM NOT A WELDER- but yes, welding aluminum creates heat- enough to melt aluminum, which is well past the kindling temp for iscocyuranate or urea/ formaldehyde foam- WAY past light up temp for styrene (Styrofoam) Was part of the investigation of a triple fatality on a construction site- welding on one side of a panel that had foam on the other. Deadly fire.

    It MAY be possible to limit heat spread by use of a chill block (heat sink) but the price of being wrong is loss of trailer, loss of girlish laughter and charming smile. I would hand it to a pro welder with LOTS of insurance, instructions to call me when it's finished.
  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would have removed enough insulation to make the welding safe and then filled the space with expanding foam through a tiny hole that could be easily plugged.
  • iceracerxiceracerx Member Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • HessianHessian Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    iceracerx wrote:
    Welding Aluminum takes some real practice and is really tough on the vertical. To put it simply you almost have to dribble the weld on there. For the frame rails overlap is your friend, extend the patch frame well beyond your cut, all the way back to the next cross rail bolts. If you remove too many cross rail bolts you are going to need a high jack to take up some of the sag/stress. Overlap your sheet metal patch also, two rows of parallel rivets to secure it and like mentioned automotive panel adhesive is your friend. If you know someone with a small sheet metal brake you can also put some edge on the patch where necessary. That bent edge really improves strength.

    I've done some welding and patch work on trucks and trailers, it was how I earned my fun money. Though I'm not a specialist I've done a lot of it. Remember overlap is your friend, it doesn't have to be pretty, it does have to be strong.

    If the bolts are too rusted cut them off with an angle grinder and buy some new hardware, old rusty hardware can be weak. Chromate treated grade nine bolts will work. High-grade thick washers and/or backing plates (flat steel), Rarely is stainless hardware as good as grade 9 steel bolts, if it is it gets really expensive.

    The only real issue I can see is those trailer frames are designed to flex and if your patch is too strong it may cause cracks or ripples near the patch edges or egg-shaped bolt holes eventually. A light coat of spray paint will show problems quick. It won't happen in a day, it may take years.

    Welding can cause its own issues, the metal gets heated unevenly and can weaken temper and/or stress crack right next to the weld.
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, the sub frame for the spread runs under the break.

    That upper section is still rail, the reflective tape is at the top of the rail. I have it bolted in, need to get more bolts today since I didn?t buy enough like a dummy and I have to go to bozeman since nobody here sells stainless bolts.

    I did buy a section of 3/8? aluminum plate hoping to add some strength to it, the original is 1/4?. A reefer is built heavier than a dry van, it has rail top and bottom plus verticle posts. It was loaded with beer when this happened and it made the trip with no sag, I thought the trailer was ruined but it didn?t sag, did I get lucky?

    I was going to take it to Bozeman to a professional weld shop to get it welded tight but I think I?ll pass now after reading this. I wasn?t sure about that insulation a d how hot aluminum welding would get. I would have to open the inside wall to get the insulation out and that would not be good. Refilling the wall after the repair through a hole would warp the inside wall since it is only fiberglass sheeting.

    I was going to turn this into insurance but my premium went to $18K this year. I would be out of business when it renews because it would double with a claim, an at fault claim would be a killer. My insurance went up with zero claims and no tickets, imagine with this what would happen.

    8mSDx6el.jpg
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    And yes, I will be trimming that bottom off, need to get a new grinder today because I smoked my 4.5? Dewalt with all this cutting!!
  • remingtonoaksremingtonoaks Member Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2019
    The only stupid question is the one not asked. And the only way to stay stupid is to never ask a question you don't know the answer to.

    That said, I would just rivet / bolt it back, but use some of that tar ribbon that is used on metal roofing ( the Name Escapes Me) in between your patch and your trailer to keep it watertight... just my opinion.

    Here's a web link that tar ribbon I'm talking about. You can buy it at Home Depot

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fabral-1-4-in-x-40-ft-Butyl-Rubber-Sealant-Tape-40BT/207149821
  • remingtonoaksremingtonoaks Member Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Looks like a pretty good repair, Lonnie! Good job!

    If you cut that bottom piece off about 1/4" - 1/2" long, you could (if you're careful) bend that piece at a 90 under the trailer (like a piece of 'L' channel). This would make it even stronger. You'd have to bend the plate in between the lateral supports and then hammer it up right at the supports (because you wouldn't be able to get in there to bend it at these locations). Just scribe a line all the way across where you want the bend and then use the line as a guide to start bending the plate a pliers width at a time. Sheet metal pliers would work, but a heavy duty set of lineman's pliers will work also. If you're going to try this, don't try to bend the whole 90 in one shot. Get it started all the way across (maybe 30-40 degrees), and then go back over it a couple times to get to the full 90 degrees. (I think you get the idea)

    And yes, I'd say you got pretty lucky if it was loaded. Trailer probably wouldn't fail there (right away), but where you'd see it first is all the way up near the top of the trailer near the roof. The sidewall would start to wrinkle/buckle at this location. A fully loaded trailer wouldn't bother me as much as the loading process itself with a partially full trailer where the front is full and you've got a loaded fork truck in there and setting a pallet down right in this area. Those fork trucks are heavy little bastages, and that would apply the most 'point load' right over the repair area.

    With the fully loaded trailer, the weight in the back helps counteract the downward force at this location because your axles serve as a fulcrum to apply an upward force at the repair area.

    Anyway, best of luck. Looks like you're gettin' there!

    FCD, that depends on the aluminum that he used whether he can cold bend it or not...


    If you bend anything harder than 5054 aluminum, you will need to anneal it by heating along the bend line. If you don't, such hard aluminum will crack and break during forming. Aluminum melts between 865 and 1,240 degrees F, so you obviously can't heat it as much as steel.

    But he could take the repair off and heat it to bend it. And yes I do agree with you, it would make his repair stronger
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Looks like a pretty good repair, Lonnie! Good job!

    If you cut that bottom piece off about 1/4" - 1/2" long, you could (if you're careful) bend that piece at a 90 under the trailer (like a piece of 'L' channel). This would make it even stronger. You'd have to bend the plate in between the lateral supports and then hammer it up right at the supports (because you wouldn't be able to get in there to bend it at these locations). Just scribe a line all the way across where you want the bend and then use the line as a guide to start bending the plate a pliers width at a time. Sheet metal pliers would work, but a heavy duty set of lineman's pliers will work also. If you're going to try this, don't try to bend the whole 90 in one shot. Get it started all the way across (maybe 30-40 degrees), and then go back over it a couple times to get to the full 90 degrees. (I think you get the idea)

    And yes, I'd say you got pretty lucky if it was loaded. Trailer probably wouldn't fail there (right away), but where you'd see it first is all the way up near the top of the trailer near the roof. The sidewall would start to wrinkle/buckle at this location. A fully loaded trailer wouldn't bother me as much as the loading process itself with a partially full trailer where the front is full and you've got a loaded fork truck in there and setting a pallet down right in this area. Those fork trucks are heavy little bastages, and that would apply the most 'point load' right over the repair area.

    With the fully loaded trailer, the weight in the back helps counteract the downward force at this location because your axles serve as a fulcrum to apply an upward force at the repair area.

    Anyway, best of luck. Looks like you're gettin' there!

    I?m horrible with a tape measure, I have never in my life measured and cut something that worked as planned! I?m kinda proud of myself that this thing fit on the first try!

    When I built the bar there was no measuring tape involved, 100% eyeballed!
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,184 ******
    edited November -1
    Stainless and aluminum... not a good combo in the out of doors.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Stainless and aluminum... not a good combo in the out of doors.

    I?ve always been taught to connect steel to aluminum shielded with plastic and bolted with stainless hardware. Am I wrong?
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,184 ******
    edited November -1
    Stainless and aluminum... not a good combo in the out of doors.

    I?ve always been taught to connect steel to aluminum shielded with plastic and bolted with stainless hardware. Am I wrong?

    The further apart on this chart, the worse.

    5a0f1ae26b1005bee2b73c893052904f.png
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting.

    Question, again common practice as far as I know is when attaching lights to aluminum on trucks why does the stainless screws not rot out the holes but regular cheap screws do?

    What about zinc coated fasteners, are they better? What fasteners do you suggest for aluminum?

    I?m not a metal guy unless we are talking music, I?m fairly ignorant when it comes to different grades of steel and aluminum. I can weld steel and have successfully wedled stainless to regular steel (messy) but that is aboutnit. Aluminum is a strange creature for me, my welder will do aluminum with a spool gun but I know that is a different beast.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 66,184 ******
    edited November -1
    Interesting.

    Question, again common practice as far as I know is when attaching lights to aluminum on trucks why does the stainless screws not rot out the holes but regular cheap screws do?

    What about zinc coated fasteners, are they better? What fasteners do you suggest for aluminum?

    I?m not a metal guy unless we are talking music, I?m fairly ignorant when it comes to different grades of steel and aluminum. I can weld steel and have successfully wedled stainless to regular steel (messy) but that is aboutnit. Aluminum is a strange creature for me, my welder will do aluminum with a spool gun but I know that is a different beast.
    Definitely recommend zinc plating.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • remingtonoaksremingtonoaks Member Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting.

    Question, again common practice as far as I know is when attaching lights to aluminum on trucks why does the stainless screws not rot out the holes but regular cheap screws do?

    What about zinc coated fasteners, are they better? What fasteners do you suggest for aluminum?

    I?m not a metal guy unless we are talking music, I?m fairly ignorant when it comes to different grades of steel and aluminum. I can weld steel and have successfully wedled stainless to regular steel (messy) but that is aboutnit. Aluminum is a strange creature for me, my welder will do aluminum with a spool gun but I know that is a different beast.

    I would start a new thread and ask KenK/84Bravo. He works for a company that builds semi trailers and I'm sure they also build aluminum trailers and would be the best one to ask what Fasteners to use. But...

    This article suggests using stainless steel fasteners for aluminum, but it also says to use plastic washers in between the two metals. Here's a link to the article


    https://www.marshfasteners.com/safely-use-stainless-steel-screws-aluminum/
  • WarbirdsWarbirds Member Posts: 16,814 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This has nothing to do with your question but I think many here would get a kick out of this video!

    My weld engineer sent it to me a while back.
    [media]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F_xr7rTVYSU[/media]
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