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Which came first??
montanajoe
Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 57,998 ******
The 9mm, or, the .38 ???
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So which 9mm are we talking about - to follow Mark's apt train of thought???
And that's right he did not carry a colt - look it up.
Mike
Also most of the le mat revolvers were pinfire...
Mike
So we must lean to the European scale of measurement and nomenclature and assume the 9mm was extant prior to the .38
Assuming production items not on off or hand made
It's the logical progression.
Mike
Mike
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he also carry a Webley RIC at some point?
They were quite large and thought to be more accurate (heavier gun - longer heavier bbl - longer sight radius - better sights - etc...
9mm pinfire was the heavy of the line (there were larger diameter rounds) with a good punch - the best trade off of power vs controllability...
He was quite proud of them - somewhat of a dandy if I recall - a bit of a fop.
I am not up to speed on a webley - though there is some anecdotal evidence he had an early bulldog snub nosed variant as a boot pistol or do under his pillow or when in mufti - but I don't K of the specifics off hand...
Remember don't leave the crew served support weapons behind - it was Custer's downfall.
Mike
1830-1835 for the 9mm pinfire introduction
Mike
Invented in 1823 if you want to use that as a timeline base point
Mike
A great resource to bookmark...
Crispen and cupfire and gravity feed parlor style and paper wrapped...
We could argue this forever.
Mike
A great resource to bookmark...
Crispen and cupfire and gravity feed parlor style and paper wrapped...
We could argue this forever.
Mike
Rollin White having the first bored through cylinder for use with a one piece self contained metallic rimfire cartridge was the Manhattan project of firearms development...
He had apprenticed at Colt and offered them the concept but they passed...
Then he sold Smith and Wesson on the concept but got shafted into being responsible to defend against all patent infringement clones and copies...
I was born in Lowell Massachusetts and that's were he set up shop...
Conversely Peter and Paul Mauser left Europe and came to the united states and worked for Remington - who also passed on developing some of their patent concepts...
I have actually fired most of these guns with their odd offshoot legal work around proprietary cartridges with original ammo...
That time has passed - that moment in history - you could still try to do it today but the cost and condition and rarity make it unlikely...
I have notes on test firing 21 separate proprietary self contained metallic cartridges that were self primed and fired out of a bored through cylinder...
I used to have some epic correspondence with Teak (Iconoclast) on the test firings and he helped me obtain samples of intact fireable ammo - he greatly appreciated the data I generated but deeply regretted my destruction of irreplaceable resources...
Firing the Mauser bolt action anti tank rifle or the .55 Boys or even the .236 Lee navy or Italian glisenti...
Needle fire and martini Henry and 14 gauge shot shells requiring a 3 pronged firing pin...
It was fun and educational and I would do it all again.
Mike
The 14 g with 3 firing pins sounds like Greener Police Gun ammo.
I have some Plants, Moore & Williams Teatfires, 2 Allen lipfires, 1 reproduction Crispin, 1 Moffat Flat Base. The non centerfire non rimfire genre was an interesting blind alley of gun development.
Good reference is Chas Suydam's US Cartridges and Their Handguns
It was a priming ring - which was one of the odd ones...
The Moore's teatfire I must have fired 30-40 rounds and it performed flawlessly...
Yes the 14 gauge greener riot gun was Indian gendarme or constabulary issue - the very distinctive 3 pronged firing pin required for ignition and the unusual shells gauge meant that if rebels or insurgents or criminals captured a shotgun they could not obtain ammo for it - I bought one (hand select special grade) and it's quite handy and functional and it looks like it saw little if any use before being cleaned and placed into proper deep storage...
I have maybe 100 rounds of loaded ammo - and I think there is someone who imported it or reproduced it but off the top of my head I don't recall...
I have a revolver that takes .45 auto rim and there were these unusually snapped ultra bottle necked cavalry training blanks - super loud to get horses used to the sound of firearms discharging...
.30-06 duplex ammo or pressed graphite heads for firing at aircraft training drone targets - towed if I recall...
The Chicago palm squeezer pocket pistol took an odd proprietary cartridge - I must have fired off two boxes of the stuff - later many gunsmiths converted them to fire short s&w pistol cartridges...
Darrick trounds and Daisy caseless and MBA gyrojet...
9mm Gardner gun endure ammo with a half copper and half cardboard case...
I put approx 100 rounds through a pederson device equipped Springfield rifle with the receiver machined cutout...
5.7 Johnson spitfire
.22 savage imperial high power
.35 acp from S&W
both murata rifle rounds and both Siamese Mauser rifle rounds
Velo dog and nagant gas seal and kolibri and .50 US rimfire short copper case
9mm AUPO
.32 French long
.50 Fat Mac
Oh what fun we had - how scandalous it was...
Worth every second and every penny.
Mike
Have single rounds of a few oddballs- 32 Extra Short for the Chicago Palm pistol. .45 Remington-Thompson- special load for the SMG that was rated at 1050 ft lbs muzzle energy. 9.8mm ACP made in 1916 for a European test (looks a lot like .40 S&W) Scored 3 boxes of 7.62 NATO Duplex in a trade. Some 4mm Luger inside primed subcaliber loads. ONE round of 2.7mm Kolibri centerfire. Shotshells from 4 g down to 6mm French (still looking for a 15 g- they made them for one year). And still looking for a 12mm Perrin.
Trivia question- what was the largest caliber cartridge handgun used by the US military (not counting flare guns) ???
Learning this history that went with a lot of this stuff is almost as much fun as shooting it. Now where can I get one round of .22 ILARCO ????
That usually causes brain freeze or they think it's a practical joke...
Purpose built specialty ammo for the AMAC .50 caliber anti material rifle
A single example of the .400 Blake proprietary cartridge
.44 Evans short rimmed
7.62x36mm Grendel subsonic sniper cartridge
.276 pederson T1 toggle lock cartridge with waxed case
.38-72 Winchester
A box of .301 savage rifle cartridges intended for sale in England
.220 rocket
Just a few tantalizing items worthy of research and while not completely non existent they should actually prove rather easy to identify - in books (obtaining samples may prove daunting)
Shout out if you can tell us about any of these - educate the class...
Mike
Got a .38/45 Bumblebee? 45 ACP necked to 38?
Have 1 round of .14 Alton Jones rimfire. How they rifled a .14 caliber barrel- I have no idea.
Know a gent that has a sealed military 20 rd box of the original Garand ammo- 276 Garand. He was asking 5 bills for it.
We all think of .22 ammo as being the bottom end- have one rd of 5mm Clement and one of 4.25 Liliput.
BTW- the largest cartridge handgun used by the US was a .50 caliber. Remington Rolling Block.
Some of the hardest rounds to come by- Hi Pressure Test Loads (proof loads) Mfgrs were really goosy about those getting into the hands of someone that might decide to shoot them. Usually red bullet, red casing head, tinned or nickeled case.
What may be a useless rifle with no purpose...
How does the .50 US rimfire used in the martialy adopted rem rolling block pistol compare to the single integral shots hell bbl found on the lemat revolvers on both sides of the civil war...
Savage lever action percussion revolvers...
Rolling block single shot shotguns cut down to cavalry / horse pistols...
Think of the possibilities...
Mike
Although I did know a Huey pilot that carried a cut down M-79 grenade launcher with a pistol grip. Definitely not an issue weapon, but that WAS a 40mm pistol.
AAR flechette carbines...
Osmium coated squeeze bore carbine - the diameter of the bbl reducing from chamber to muzzle - etched polygonal rifling and finned bbl to radiate heat away from the bore
Sacrificial soft jacket material that compresses and protects the monolithic solid core tungsten carbide projectile acting as a lubricant as it changes state - extreme pressure spikes - projectile achieves ultra high velocity prior to exiting at the muzzle...
Monolithic solid core of dense material with great tensile strength and Rockwell hardness rating required to maintain stability and imparted rotational energy without breaking apart or suffering a heat transfer related failure from friction and compression and velocity...
How long before they miniaturize the technology currently incorporated into the new naval main gun - it's rail gun function requiring the special constructed and shaped munition and an enormous peak power load required to impell the round toward the target...
Hmm...
Mike
Mike