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Wildcat 12GA From Hell.--

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Comments

  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
    with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
    made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
    straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
    gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
    to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
    head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
    It is a really nice looking gun, with great
    craftsmanship.Ed
    inchgun.jpg
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hubel,
    I'd like to ask you some questions about making custom 12ga slugs. But, the email is down. Mine is bangboom3@hotmail.com if you get this.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Email me- gunowner@journey.com

    Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
    on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
    one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
    We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
    put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
    block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
    in picture with lever open and breech down.
    I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
    hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture.

    Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
    on the back of the breech block on an extension.
    I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic.
    It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
    Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
    Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
    breech and action a little wider.Ed

    8gafb.jpg

    4trham.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
    do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
    block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
    with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
    and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
    The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
    the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
    same parts, but just be wider on the top of the block.
    The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
    from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

    This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
    built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
    to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed
    8gafbb.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
    Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
    from the top...2nd a side view of the breech
    block with back extensions, with hammer and
    trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
    The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
    inside the two bottom extensions.Ed
    emptyact.jpg
    brchside.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
    pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
    of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
    RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
    That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
    or plastic if you can find them.
    Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED
    bigbore.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
    Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
    extensions are narrower than the top. These are
    what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
    levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
    And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
    stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same
    width for all action sizes.Just top different
    for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
    This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
    changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
    of 1500gr over 2600.Ed
    brchfront.jpg
    brchback.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
    hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
    69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
    little, in a 12ga wad cup.
    2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
    new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
    petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
    In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
    powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
    I could get over 2800. Ed
    8gawad.jpg
    p1010011dj.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
    and locked on base, shown above is called the
    Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
    And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
    versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
    shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long
    barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
    of our slower powders we load with.

    Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
    of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
    jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
    a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
    perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
    formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll
    crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that
    would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
    that would do 8ga...Ed
    buljkt.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
    Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
    300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
    more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
    slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
    the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
    Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
    a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
    rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
    spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
    the most accurate.

    Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
    675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
    I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
    it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
    trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
    in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
    2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
    on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
    good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
    On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
    on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
    to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
    the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
    guys want to get.....ED
    horn.jpg
    rgflat.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture some folks wanted of our
    big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
    In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
    my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

    2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
    are checking loads in, to see how much speed
    can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
    short full bore lead slug, compared to the
    saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
    slug load for more speed..

    Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
    that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
    smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
    the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
    got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
    longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED

    big06.jpg
    short730.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
    30-06 for size comparison.
    3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
    break, etc, actions.

    1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
    for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
    Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

    2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
    now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
    The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
    designed to use in break actions and run about
    25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
    has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
    It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed

    all585.jpg

    87rhm.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ome 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
    In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
    It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

    Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
    900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
    Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
    Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

    740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
    10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase Cup has it own seal
    and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

    Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
    my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
    BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
    swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
    single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
    barrel. Barrels- 1.32" at breech- 1.070 muzzle.Ed

    585bbkt.jpg

    cbc585.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
    Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
    decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
    slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
    on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
    28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
    28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

    But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
    with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
    those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
    about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
    a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

    Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
    heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
    585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
    smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
    ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
    260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
    brass case from RMC.

    28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
    24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
    most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
    would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
    And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
    Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
    being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
    brass cases.

    The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
    connected by long post, that you can see inside
    the case in picture and pictured on the box
    Quite a long tail so to speak for
    good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
    for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
    100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED

    SCJ28B_011.jpg
    SL282.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
    slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
    their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
    have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
    short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
    developed. The slugs are about same length as
    the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
    can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
    of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
    will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
    I'll Have pictures later to post.

    Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
    shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
    straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
    30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
    it fits nice, looks great. Ed

    585khd.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
    are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
    10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
    Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
    seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
    shown in the picture below, also
    American Arms, and Richland Arms.
    And probably a few more.

    I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
    ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
    for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
    loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
    still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
    with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
    Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
    the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

    For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
    900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
    guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
    Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
    barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
    keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

    These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
    heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
    enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
    Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
    and others have made big bore rifles
    using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
    double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
    gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed

    pix202091262.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
    a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
    16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

    Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
    and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

    Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
    penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.

    Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
    in a sabot I figured out the following.
    The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
    12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
    cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
    Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
    In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
    gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
    with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
    make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.

    If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
    would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

    1628-0005.jpg
    0658-0494.jpg
    Monolit_32_picture.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mores pictures of the Brennekke and Fed slugs.

    [IMG]http://cdn1.{elsewhere}/ctd_images/lgprod/60350.jpg[/IMG]

    IMG
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-

    SS60350.jpg

    TruBallComponents2.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
    I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
    it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
    is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
    Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
    In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
    slugs in them. These slugs with those brasscases are
    being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
    The slugs have real good shoulder to
    roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
    These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
    work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
    that the brass case guys want to use.
    Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
    a bad deal to get them and machine them.Ed.

    keys1.jpg

    keys2.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
    that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
    and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
    long barrel NEF.

    For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
    above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
    them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
    The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
    if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
    take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
    35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
    staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
    good for 4 shots or more.

    And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
    its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
    for various other slugs and shot loads.

    In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
    1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
    and triple ought buckshot load---
    9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed

    8gawad.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
    them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
    3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
    from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
    Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
    is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
    seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
    The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
    card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed
    p1010011dj.jpg

    p1010009zh.jpg

    pa260004.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that rifled,
    choke section, 12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, slugs, heavier powder
    charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
    about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

    And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
    And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
    than we have today, so our work in a good extension
    of what the early big bore guys did.

    And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

    IMG_1844.jpg

    IMG_1845.jpg

    IMG_1846.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
    above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

    Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
    with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
    from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
    Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
    Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
    as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
    Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

    2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
    next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
    sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
    if ever available..

    3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

    1130013.jpg

    1144115.jpg

    gr4.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You can see videos of various 8bores.4bores, etc,
    by guys from around the world on You-Tube.ED
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
    called the Field I think. Looks like some other
    side levers, looks like lever works forward.

    And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
    start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
    up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
    bores only wider.

    I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
    out to the two bore size.
    And a square hole for breach block done
    in that hunk of 4130 steel.

    Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
    my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
    620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
    IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
    Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
    Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
    Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
    only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
    585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
    Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

    gr2.jpg

    start2.jpg

    620she.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
    they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
    speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
    that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
    book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

    Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
    from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
    to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
    Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
    last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

    Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
    reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
    from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
    Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
    do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed

    explora.jpg

    gr3.jpg

    make4.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
    brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
    I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
    some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
    real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
    magnum primers.

    A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
    mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
    solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
    using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
    inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
    for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
    out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
    Mag primer about a foot of flame.

    Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
    a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
    And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
    modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

    gr1.jpg

    parcases.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
    using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
    loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

    In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
    slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
    base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
    picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
    About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
    the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

    Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
    750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
    10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
    Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
    and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
    and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
    down to these slugs.

    And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
    a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
    same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
    SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
    and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
    out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
    Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

    8gawad.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
    First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
    Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
    Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
    Looks like the roll crimp locks against
    the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
    flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
    the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
    plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
    die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
    of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
    in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
    have more room for our slower powders.ED

    rucase.jpg

    ruslug.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of 4 long cases of
    RIP's on the AR forum.
    Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
    3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
    getting these and lengthening chambers
    allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
    Some factory guns are 3.5"

    Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
    Chambered for these you can use
    3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
    3.5" from the factory.

    3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
    Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

    rip4.jpg


    Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
    into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
    which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
    see one of those slugs in the picture.

    bodycrimp.jpg


    Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
    plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
    the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

    In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
    locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
    It is great to see smoothbore slugs like the US-S
    that is as accurate as most full bore slugs from
    rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
    from European Cartridge.Ed
  • iceracerxiceracerx Member Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hubel458
    You can see videos of various 8bores.4bores, etc,
    by guys from around the world on You-Tube.ED


    Thanks for the suggestion. Amazing videos.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
    in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
    roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
    ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
    who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
    pictured have the locked on base that their
    other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
    2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
    for doing slugs like these.Ed

    pushin.jpg

    usslongnose.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
    down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
    And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

    And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
    by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
    double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

    3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
    four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
    penetrating solid bullet, from France.

    rcslug.jpg


    rctarget.jpg


    frsabot.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

    First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
    It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.

    paraklese.jpg

    Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
    with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.

    hexolit.jpg

    Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
    get for reloading, and we're finding that these
    locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
    giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
    save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
    grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

    gualandi.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

    First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
    with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
    groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
    quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
    in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

    alcan.jpg

    Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
    57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
    Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
    REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
    with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
    640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
    case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
    Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

    Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
    fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
    fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

    12ls58.jpg

    Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
    the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
    and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
    speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
    much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
    50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
    at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
    the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
    Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
    better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
    smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
    is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
    be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
    offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
    problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

    Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
    12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
    and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
    huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
    is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
    which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
    It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
    many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
    or in sabots if we can find some.ED

    55sabot.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
    and locked on base types.

    First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
    I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
    tight, into the base.

    buckha20.jpg

    Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
    buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
    slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
    The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

    And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
    Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
    many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

    Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
    discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
    Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
    and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
    3.5" RMC cases.

    20sabsl.jpg

    Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
    in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
    is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
    The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
    I wish the BPI was full size like the others
    and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........

    12ls50.jpg

    Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
    50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
    a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
    Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
    loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
    the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed


    12spws.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some more slug setups and ideas.

    First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
    locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
    It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
    counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
    I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
    Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

    4uss.jpg



    2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
    With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

    eucart.jpg



    3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
    1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
    A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
    too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
    These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

    tung.jpg



    4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
    58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

    tungsab.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
    First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
    They look like Berdan primed. Run from
    36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

    36-12brass.jpg

    Second is a paper case clad with
    thin brass nearly to the top.

    paperbrass.jpg

    Third is picture of paper case crimped into
    the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
    pictured above with a Dixie slug.

    papercrimp.jpg

    Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
    that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
    A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
    slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

    For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
    that have been available, for reloading guys. That
    the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
    at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
    most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
    more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
    had to work with.

    I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
    Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
    heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
    30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
    Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
    Can be loaded faster.

    No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
    than witches ---, and no time.
    I am trying to find who makes these.There are
    about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed

    12ls58.jpg
This discussion has been closed.