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Employee messes up......who pays the price???

Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
edited April 2019 in General Discussion
Employee error......who pays??? Its typically always fallen to the employer to cover any mistakes that are made, but is it always the case??? I have seen where restaurants take food that wasn't paid for out of the server's wages. I don't know HOW they get away with that because that has nothing at all to do with the server.
LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com

Comments

  • WearyTravelerWearyTraveler Member Posts: 2,006 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd think that it depends on the error and the employee.

    The customer should always be made whole. If it was an accidental screw up, then I'd think that he company should eat the cost. If the employee is a constant screw up, then Eby can eat the cost.
    ”People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    - GEORGE ORWELL -
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,664 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In most States it is illegal to deduct shortages or errors from the employee pay checks UNLESS the employee agrees, in writing, to the deduction.
  • Smitty500magSmitty500mag Member Posts: 13,603 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have seen where restaurants take food that wasn't paid for out of the server's wages.

    They might as well deduct the cost of the front plate glass window from my paycheck to if they did that 'cause that's where the manager or owner is going to go flying though when he does that.
  • hillbillehillbille Member Posts: 14,120 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    unless it was intentional destruction of property, the employer should pay, he may then fire the employee and/or sue, but not take any money out of his check unless he offers. that is the price you pay when hiring, trying to get someone dependable and honest, seems to be getting tougher these days.......
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The end consumer usually ends up paying with higher prices.

    Union or non union shop?

    Seems if the employees keep wanting a bigger cut of the profit, they need to assume the risks too, especially if they caused it.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The Employer eats the mistake. If it happens again the Employer can let the person go the first time or not give them a raise ( and mention the mess up later ) Cost of doing business.
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Once a year the postal service does a real job on one of the items we ship. We have no trouble, never lost a box and everything arrives safe and sound.......except once a year they have someone run over a box with a forklift. This time it was a $2000 Browning rifle. The stock is in pieces. After following through the various denials and filing several appeals the post office has agreed to pay the claim.

    Here is where the tale goes sour.....not that it was a fun story to begin with.

    The Postal people say they "get the gun"......when that couldn't be further from the truth because you cannot GIVE the USPS a gun, they are not an FFL and nobody there is going to do a background check. They cannot take the gun, but they DO have to pay for the damage done. They sent a check for $800 that arrived today.

    I find out that the customer has given the gun to his postmaster and she is like talking to the devil himself and refuses to understand that this is a $2000 gun, nevermind that every firearm law ever written is being broken. This lady starts to tell me that it was only insured for $800 and they get to keep the gun because they paid the claim. I'm TOTALLY confused now. So, after a bit of digging I find that the employee who made the shipping label only paid for it to be insured for $800. So, instead of full coverage insurance it is "worth" $800 to the USPS. This still doesn't make sense to me because if you drive a $60,000 car and pay for $1,000 worth of insurance.......if someone does $10,000 worth of damage to the car they don't pay $1,000 and take the car.

    Ok......so the rifle is being held by idiots at the USPS and I don't see us getting it back. We have a check here for $800 and a customer that paid $2000 for a rifle that he has turned over to the post office because he paid for full coverage insurance and thought it would get his claim handled if he turned it over.

    So......I get to pay $1200 out of my pocket for an employee's error. If I can get the rifle back and sell it as a damaged item it will recoup SOME of this money......but my luck will ensure that this goes any way but that way.

    GRRRRRRRRR (I'm not making anyone pay.....but they have offered, but I know they do not have this kind of money to part with.)

    I'm so sick of this whole ordeal.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • mrs102mrs102 Member Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a rifle in my collection that arrived with a broken stock. Because it is a "rare" caliber for the model, and I knew the post office would demand the rifle to pay a claim, I just kept it. I've put another butt stock on it that doesn't match color with the forearm and I'll be damned if I can find a matching set of wood without buying another rifle. But, I do have the rifle and not the post office.

    If you fire this person, how long would it take to train someone new and how much productivity for the business will be lost compared to the loss?
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited April 2019
    bailment
    n. 1) the act of placing property in the custody and control of another, usually by agreement in which the holder (bailee) is responsible for the safekeeping and return of the property. Examples: bonds left with the bank, autos parked in a garage, animals lodged with a kennel, or a storage facility (as long as the goods can be moved and are under the control of the custodian). While most are "bailments for hire" in which the custodian (bailee) is paid, there is also "constructive bailment" when the circumstances create an obligation upon the custodian to protect the goods, and "gratuitous bailment" in which there is no payment, but the bailee is still responsible, such as when a finder of a lost diamond ring places it with a custodian pending finding the owner. 2) the goods themselves which are held by a bailee. Thus, the "bailor" (owner) leaves the "bailment" (goods) with the "bailee" (custodian), and the entire transaction is a "bailment."


    No insurance required. They have to pay up. Question is how much to you wish to spend to force them to their legal obligation?

    There may be some forms floating around that are not talked about but may be worth some digging. It's like if the police damage your goods in a search, you can recover the cost, but you need to file the proper forms. Your low level postal employees will be of no help, they will keep harping on insurance insurance insurance to divert your efforts from the proper legal path. Ebay tried that carp with me, I knew the law and just filed the correct paperwork and they complied.

    Policy is not law. Read in the UCC (uniform commercial code)
  • Quick&DeadQuick&Dead Member Posts: 1,466 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Once a year the postal service does a real job on one of the items we ship. We have no trouble, never lost a box and everything arrives safe and sound.......except once a year they have someone run over a box with a forklift. This time it was a $2000 Browning rifle. The stock is in pieces. After following through the various denials and filing several appeals the post office has agreed to pay the claim.

    Here is where the tale goes sour.....not that it was a fun story to begin with.

    The Postal people say they "get the gun"......when that couldn't be further from the truth because you cannot GIVE the USPS a gun, they are not an FFL and nobody there is going to do a background check. They cannot take the gun, but they DO have to pay for the damage done. They sent a check for $800 that arrived today.

    I find out that the customer has given the gun to his postmaster and she is like talking to the devil himself and refuses to understand that this is a $2000 gun, nevermind that every firearm law ever written is being broken. This lady starts to tell me that it was only insured for $800 and they get to keep the gun because they paid the claim. I'm TOTALLY confused now. So, after a bit of digging I find that the employee who made the shipping label only paid for it to be insured for $800. So, instead of full coverage insurance it is "worth" $800 to the USPS. This still doesn't make sense to me because if you drive a $60,000 car and pay for $1,000 worth of insurance.......if someone does $10,000 worth of damage to the car they don't pay $1,000 and take the car.

    Ok......so the rifle is being held by idiots at the USPS and I don't see us getting it back. We have a check here for $800 and a customer that paid $2000 for a rifle that he has turned over to the post office because he paid for full coverage insurance and thought it would get his claim handled if he turned it over.

    So......I get to pay $1200 out of my pocket for an employee's error. If I can get the rifle back and sell it as a damaged item it will recoup SOME of this money......but my luck will ensure that this goes any way but that way.

    GRRRRRRRRR (I'm not making anyone pay.....but they have offered, but I know they do not have this kind of money to part with.)

    I'm so sick of this whole ordeal.


    Contact the U.S. Posmaster General....and your Congressmen.....and the U.S. Attorney General .... and the ATF.

    Maybe someone can resolve the issue.
    The government has no rights. Only the people have rights which empowers the government.
    We have enough gun laws, what we need is IDIOT control.
    Blood makes you related. Loyalty makes you family.

    I thought getting old would take longer. :shock:
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It would take weeks to train another person, and this employee is a family friend to my in laws.....they are also SUPER honest, been here forever, and they neeeeeeed this job. I couldn't get rid of them unless they gave me no other choice. Being slow at what they do is my only real complaint. I've hoped to be able to give them some kind of raise and added responsibility, but they aren't able to take on the work higher pay would warrant. I've taken what was some of their job and given it to another employee to help them keep on top of things. We have a 4 day work week here. I work every day, but Mon-Thurs is all hands on deck.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • austin20austin20 Member Posts: 34,829 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We have guys where I work damaging product almost daily
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I might add that there may be an anti gun nut working the PO. Might want to get your state attorney general involved. It's not like they wouldn't know what was in the package.
  • WarbirdsWarbirds Member Posts: 16,814 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A few years back I had a group of hourly folks where I was their leader only by default because their engineering site lead medically retired unexpectedly. I knew their scope of business so I inherited that team for just a few months while a replacement was being found.

    Well a long time operator (20+ years) didnt follow a procedure, a blatant mistake of complacency. Once we have our product built- a test reveals a failure in a big, ugly manner.

    I get flown out to the sight with the Sr. VP of Operations (2nd only to the CEO & I had never even met before) because he is pissed and wants to personally walk the process in question to understand the breakdown.

    In front of a dozen operators the king flies off the handle and orders me to fire the operator who made the mistake.

    I refuse and again get screamed at-
    ?Fire that operator!!!?

    We go back and forth and I hold my ground.

    The operator doesn't get fired.

    To this day- over 4 years later (and a few thousand miles away) my reputation with the hourly staff has followed me across the business.
    I could have dropped the hammer and fired a loyal employee who got complacent- instead I took a public * beating and did not back down.

    The technicians trust me and now they have my back, and yes, they have saved my * when they could have let the normal business rhythm crash the bus.

    Not exactly apples to apples with your scenario- but leaders need to be loyal to their staff particularly when the chips are down. If you believe in that person, you have to invest in them & sometimes that means owning their mistakes as your own.

    Best of luck.
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Agreed.....its not going to be fun, but my plan is to cover things and DIG IN HARD to get that gun back so I can hopefully recoup some of this mess.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Agreed.....its not going to be fun, but my plan is to cover things and DIG IN HARD to get that gun back so I can hopefully recoup some of this mess.

    I assume that the post office illegally confiscating/stealing your firearm is out of state.

    Another thing may be to contact the SAF lawyers and ask for advice. I am not confident the NRA would give you proper advice based on track record.

    The feds want you to dot each I and cross each T or you get in big trouble, this is the one to dig in on, not some dope who don't want to pay.

    Don't let them change or make up "RULES", and pass them off as law. I still advise to read the UCC. Anybody who sells online should familiarize themselves with the laws. This will help clarify many issues about auctions and responsibilities of the participants.

    I wish you well in this monumental battle of bureaucracy.
  • shootuadealshootuadeal Member Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've never understood why we have to pay insurance to the shipping companies to begin with. It kind of pisses me off actually.

    When you take your car to the mechanic do they tell you, you have to pay an extra $50 in case we drop your car off the hoist? Does your barber charge you a fee in case he snips the top of your ear off?

    Basically they are saying...you have to pay us in case we F!#@ your box up in transit, if you don't we won't pay you for it.
  • bustedkneebustedknee Member Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I mailed a rifle to a buyer, in-state; No FFL required!

    The USPO destroyed the stock but the metal was OK. The buyer took possession of the destroyed package and did not turn it in to the PO. He filed pictures of the destroyed stock with his claim.

    I had purchased sufficient insurance to cover the actual replacement cost of the firearm so that was never an issue.

    Via the internet, I located a replacement stock and purchased it for the buyer. I sent him the receipt along with the wood and he promised to send me the check after the USPS settled.

    After he filed the claim, the Postal Service response was, they were, "Going to file federal charges against the shipper (me) for illegally shipping a handgun through the US Mail"!

    WHAT A BUNCH OF FREAKING IDIOTS!

    The buyer did a judicious amount of arm waving and yelling.

    I waited.

    After many delays and shuffling the case to different levels, someone of sufficient intelligence and authority finally issued a check for the amount I paid for the replacement stock (1/3 the value of the entire gun).
    My understanding at the time was, if we had wanted to recover the full amount of insurance purchased (for the entire gun) we would have had to turn in the entire gun...

    So I'm guessing -- since only $800 of insurance was purchased (which was too little for the gun) and the claim is for $800 they will want the gun.
    Try offering to keep the metal (rifle) and claim $800 towards purchase of the new stock (proved with the receipt) if the replacement is over $800.

    The government runs on paperwork - proper forms, pictures and receipts are required.


    The employee issue?
    If he was previously properly trained on the issue but violated written policy -- he is liable.
    Take it out of the employee's pay a little each payday. If you are a nice guy and you want to keep him, you can offer to split the recovery. You pay have and he pays half. If the employee disagrees - he is gone, This makes a statement to other employees.
    I can't believe they misspelled "Pork and Beans!"
  • Missouri Mule K30Missouri Mule K30 Member Posts: 2,092 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Warbirds wrote:
    A few years back I had a group of hourly folks where I was their leader only by default because their engineering site lead medically retired unexpectedly. I knew their scope of business so I inherited that team for just a few months while a replacement was being found.

    Well a long time operator (20+ years) didnt follow a procedure, a blatant mistake of complacency. Once we have our product built- a test reveals a failure in a big, ugly manner.

    I get flown out to the sight with the Sr. VP of Operations (2nd only to the CEO & I had never even met before) because he is pissed and wants to personally walk the process in question to understand the breakdown.

    In front of a dozen operators the king flies off the handle and orders me to fire the operator who made the mistake.

    I refuse and again get screamed at-
    ?Fire that operator!!!?

    We go back and forth and I hold my ground.

    The operator doesn't get fired.

    To this day- over 4 years later (and a few thousand miles away) my reputation with the hourly staff has followed me across the business.
    I could have dropped the hammer and fired a loyal employee who got complacent- instead I took a public * beating and did not back down.

    The technicians trust me and now they have my back, and yes, they have saved my * when they could have let the normal business rhythm crash the bus.

    Not exactly apples to apples with your scenario- but leaders need to be loyal to their staff particularly when the chips are down. If you believe in that person, you have to invest in them & sometimes that means owning their mistakes as your own.

    Best of luck.

    I have saved many an *, and so has a valued employee saved mine. And Teamwork is an invaluable asset with some reassurance that protocols are being met.

    I have seen this before and a phone call to the ATFE having them call the USPS contact was all that it took to get the firearm to the receiver and booked in. Then ping pong back to seller. FFL TO FFL no other entity can take possession.

    I believe that this was talked about a few years ago.
  • Ricci WrightRicci Wright Member Posts: 8,260 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you can you might consider getting the rifle back instead of the $800.00 and having it repaired. Reimburse the customer and sell the rifle. It sucks either way but as they say that is the cost of doing business sometimes. I made a simple mistake a few months ago which was made much worse by the gun shop receiving the gun. I immediately reimbursed my customer and ate the $350.00. Not as much as your problem but it still sucked. Either way don?t let it bother you for too long. Stress kills.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 39,309 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    I've never understood why we have to pay insurance to the shipping companies to begin with. It kind of pisses me off actually.

    When you take your car to the mechanic do they tell you, you have to pay an extra $50 in case we drop your car off the hoist? Does your barber charge you a fee in case he snips the top of your ear off?

    Basically they are saying...you have to pay us in case we F!#@ your box up in transit, if you don't we won't pay you for it.

    I have always wondered the same thing. If you or I provide a service, for the fee charged it is expected it will be completed in an acceptable manner. WTH are we paying postage/shipping for if we have to pay extra to get it delivered in one piece?
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mag00 wrote:
    bailment
    n. 1) the act of placing property in the custody and control of another, usually by agreement in which the holder (bailee) is responsible for the safekeeping and return of the property. Examples: bonds left with the bank, autos parked in a garage, animals lodged with a kennel, or a storage facility (as long as the goods can be moved and are under the control of the custodian). While most are "bailments for hire" in which the custodian (bailee) is paid, there is also "constructive bailment" when the circumstances create an obligation upon the custodian to protect the goods, and "gratuitous bailment" in which there is no payment, but the bailee is still responsible, such as when a finder of a lost diamond ring places it with a custodian pending finding the owner. 2) the goods themselves which are held by a bailee. Thus, the "bailor" (owner) leaves the "bailment" (goods) with the "bailee" (custodian), and the entire transaction is a "bailment."


    No insurance required. They have to pay up. Question is how much to you wish to spend to force them to their legal obligation?

    There may be some forms floating around that are not talked about but may be worth some digging. It's like if the police damage your goods in a search, you can recover the cost, but you need to file the proper forms. Your low level postal employees will be of no help, they will keep harping on insurance insurance insurance to divert your efforts from the proper legal path. Ebay tried that carp with me, I knew the law and just filed the correct paperwork and they complied.

    Policy is not law. Read in the UCC (uniform commercial code)

    An interesting argument, Mr. Magoo, but there is insurance in place, in Casey's case. I have not read the contract established when insurance is contracted through the Post Office, but the obvious point is if they had lost the rifle, they would obviously only be on the hook for the $ 800.00 insurance that was contracted. If the item is damaged in excess of the insured value, how can the contracted insurance carrier be on expected to pay for the full contracted value and then be forced to release the item?

    With automobile insurance, the typical contract is based upon the value of the item being insured. If the damage is in excess of that value, the insurance company will pay the actual value and own the vehicle. If the previous owner wishes to retain ownership, a deal can be worked out whereby they purchase the vehicle back from the company, usually at a greatly reduced value. In this case the value is established by the policy, and it appears the Post Office has upheld its end of the deal by paying the declared value of the property to the shipper. One can make assumptions as to why it was insured for less than actual value, but I fail to see how that is the problem of the insurance carrier.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    mag00 wrote:
    bailment
    n. 1) the act of placing property in the custody and control of another, usually by agreement in which the holder (bailee) is responsible for the safekeeping and return of the property. Examples: bonds left with the bank, autos parked in a garage, animals lodged with a kennel, or a storage facility (as long as the goods can be moved and are under the control of the custodian). While most are "bailments for hire" in which the custodian (bailee) is paid, there is also "constructive bailment" when the circumstances create an obligation upon the custodian to protect the goods, and "gratuitous bailment" in which there is no payment, but the bailee is still responsible, such as when a finder of a lost diamond ring places it with a custodian pending finding the owner. 2) the goods themselves which are held by a bailee. Thus, the "bailor" (owner) leaves the "bailment" (goods) with the "bailee" (custodian), and the entire transaction is a "bailment."


    No insurance required. They have to pay up. Question is how much to you wish to spend to force them to their legal obligation?

    There may be some forms floating around that are not talked about but may be worth some digging. It's like if the police damage your goods in a search, you can recover the cost, but you need to file the proper forms. Your low level postal employees will be of no help, they will keep harping on insurance insurance insurance to divert your efforts from the proper legal path. Ebay tried that carp with me, I knew the law and just filed the correct paperwork and they complied.

    Policy is not law. Read in the UCC (uniform commercial code)

    An interesting argument, Mr. Magoo, but there is insurance in place, in Casey's case. I have not read the contract established when insurance is contracted through the Post Office, but the obvious point is if they had lost the rifle, they would obviously only be on the hook for the $ 800.00 insurance that was contracted. If the item is damaged in excess of the insured value, how can the contracted insurance carrier be on expected to pay for the full contracted value and then be forced to release the item?

    With automobile insurance, the typical contract is based upon the value of the item being insured. If the damage is in excess of that value, the insurance company will pay the actual value and own the vehicle. If the previous owner wishes to retain ownership, a deal can be worked out whereby they purchase the vehicle back from the company, usually at a greatly reduced value. In this case the value is established by the policy, and it appears the Post Office has upheld its end of the deal by paying the declared value of the property to the shipper. One can make assumptions as to why it was insured for less than actual value, but I fail to see how that is the problem of the insurance carrier.

    If you sign a contract to drive the getaway car for bank robbers...

    How about signing a lease that has terms against the state law?

    Also note that in a dispute where there is question etc, the scales weigh in favor of the party that did not draw up the contract.

    Even still, if there is $800 cap, that is to fix the damage. The firearm wasn't lost, it needs to be returned to the owner. If it was lost or stolen LF has specific duties to report it as such or get in trouble.

    Insurance companies set the policy, <----note "policy", not the law. Some think it is law because they have more money to fight you in court. The courts are complicit in this injustice especially when it comes to Blue Book values of vehicles.

    So let's say you insure you pinto for minimum coverage. You hit a new expensive car. Your insurance only pays the victim the max of your policy. Do they get the other guys car? Do you get his car because your insurance paid out?

    Let's revist LF's scenario. Suppose it was insured for $1,000,000. Would they write her a check? NOPE. Not for a million. You can only fudge the value a little bit and get away with this. The POST OFFICE is way out of line here. I would return the check and tell them to return the merchandise and you will send a bill for the repair, up to the limit of $800. (plus return of the original shipping).
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    http://www.tabberone.com/

    This is a good read or site to peruse. May not be applicable to the current situation, in details, but is applicable in standing up to the man.

    These folks have taken on the industry giants and won. Point is, you don't have to take the word of the big guy in this case, they are wrong and you can win if you plan a little and are educated on the process. I'm not a lawyer, stick to the facts and the actual law, not policy.

    This is where LF needs to be careful. If you remember, her and I have difference of opinion on how to deal with troublesome buyers. That type of interaction cannot happen in this case or she/you will be sunk.

    When I was selling on Amazon, a few folks would get suspended. They would come in crying and whining on how unfair etc. Well guess what? Amazon does not care about personal problems. They do care about how you will make your business better, and they want to see an outline with bullet points addressing your case.

    People who followed the wise advise of the seasoned sellers, in most cases were re instated. Those who wrote out hard to read long sobs stories NEVER were re instated.

    This is the classic little guy vs giant, go in prepared.

    LF, sorry if I sound harsh at times. Just know that I like/care about you enough to not lie to you.
    Here is a small list, just a starting point to be refined to your specific situation. You're probably a little bit past alot of this, but none the less, the principle of outline with how you want it to go will work from any stage of the process.
      KISS be respectful outline quickly the issue cite the laws or regs to support you don't argue irrelevant issues tell them how to proceed (within the law) thank them for quick resolution ahead of time do not threaten

    We're rooting for ya :ugeek:
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mag00 wrote:
    mag00 wrote:
    bailment
    n. 1) the act of placing property in the custody and control of another, usually by agreement in which the holder (bailee) is responsible for the safekeeping and return of the property. Examples: bonds left with the bank, autos parked in a garage, animals lodged with a kennel, or a storage facility (as long as the goods can be moved and are under the control of the custodian). While most are "bailments for hire" in which the custodian (bailee) is paid, there is also "constructive bailment" when the circumstances create an obligation upon the custodian to protect the goods, and "gratuitous bailment" in which there is no payment, but the bailee is still responsible, such as when a finder of a lost diamond ring places it with a custodian pending finding the owner. 2) the goods themselves which are held by a bailee. Thus, the "bailor" (owner) leaves the "bailment" (goods) with the "bailee" (custodian), and the entire transaction is a "bailment."


    No insurance required. They have to pay up. Question is how much to you wish to spend to force them to their legal obligation?

    There may be some forms floating around that are not talked about but may be worth some digging. It's like if the police damage your goods in a search, you can recover the cost, but you need to file the proper forms. Your low level postal employees will be of no help, they will keep harping on insurance insurance insurance to divert your efforts from the proper legal path. Ebay tried that carp with me, I knew the law and just filed the correct paperwork and they complied.

    Policy is not law. Read in the UCC (uniform commercial code)

    An interesting argument, Mr. Magoo, but there is insurance in place, in Casey's case. I have not read the contract established when insurance is contracted through the Post Office, but the obvious point is if they had lost the rifle, they would obviously only be on the hook for the $ 800.00 insurance that was contracted. If the item is damaged in excess of the insured value, how can the contracted insurance carrier be on expected to pay for the full contracted value and then be forced to release the item?

    With automobile insurance, the typical contract is based upon the value of the item being insured. If the damage is in excess of that value, the insurance company will pay the actual value and own the vehicle. If the previous owner wishes to retain ownership, a deal can be worked out whereby they purchase the vehicle back from the company, usually at a greatly reduced value. In this case the value is established by the policy, and it appears the Post Office has upheld its end of the deal by paying the declared value of the property to the shipper. One can make assumptions as to why it was insured for less than actual value, but I fail to see how that is the problem of the insurance carrier.

    If you sign a contract to drive the getaway car for bank robbers...

    How about signing a lease that has terms against the state law?

    Also note that in a dispute where there is question etc, the scales weigh in favor of the party that did not draw up the contract.

    Even still, if there is $800 cap, that is to fix the damage. The firearm wasn't lost, it needs to be returned to the owner. If it was lost or stolen LF has specific duties to report it as such or get in trouble.

    Insurance companies set the policy, <----note "policy", not the law. Some think it is law because they have more money to fight you in court. The courts are complicit in this injustice especially when it comes to Blue Book values of vehicles.

    So let's say you insure you pinto for minimum coverage. You hit a new expensive car. Your insurance only pays the victim the max of your policy. Do they get the other guys car? Do you get his car because your insurance paid out?

    Let's revist LF's scenario. Suppose it was insured for $1,000,000. Would they write her a check? NOPE. Not for a million. You can only fudge the value a little bit and get away with this. The POST OFFICE is way out of line here. I would return the check and tell them to return the merchandise and you will send a bill for the repair, up to the limit of $800. (plus return of the original shipping).

    The USPS insures things for 'Declared Value'. The declared value, as established by the shipper, was $ 800.00. This is the contract that was signed when insurance was purchased. If the insurance company pays the value of an item, they should be able to keep it. If the USPS insured things for 'well, maybe up to half the value or whatever the shipper wants to say it is worth after we damage it', you would have a valid point.

    Your third party example regarding my Pinto has no application here. Please know that my Pinto has full coverage and the state mandated liability minimum. My insurance company will pay out up to that minimum. If the other car was totaled, and the owner accepted the payout, my insurance company would own the car, not me. If the value of the car was greater than the minimum, the owner would come after me, and may end up with the Pinto. In this case, the insurance company paid out the value of the item as declared by the original owner. The buyer will then have to go to the original owner to be made whole, just as the owner of the expensive car I totaled with Pinto would have to do.

    The Pinto is on its last legs, however. I would pretty much have to be stopped in the wrong spot and impacted at a high rate of speed for there to be enough energy to total anything other than say, my Yugo.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • mag00mag00 Member Posts: 4,719 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You would be wrong. A contract to do illegal acts is not a contract. A contract that is in violation of the law is unenforceable.

    If you sign your title over to me it is my car. If you sign it over under duress, different story. If you smash my car and are only insured to 1/10 of the damages and worth, I will be in court and you can fight out the balance with your insurance. I've had insurance companies try that on me, caveat emptor.

    Read it before you sign it. If you don't agree, don't sign it until you negotiate what you will agree to.

    I haven't seen the papers LF's worker signed when shipping. I have not seen the accompanying paperwork with the insurance payout. But I am pretty sure there was NO signature until the check showed up, maybe one to file the claim, and I have not seen that paperwork either.

    And again I will remind you, that ups nor usps will pay a full claimed value if they don't have to, say 1,000,000 for a lost glock. If your Yugo or Pinto is hit, don't matter how much the guy who hit you is covered for, they will only pay book value, another insurance scam/policy. That is not law, and if you fight it can be compensated fairly.

    With the amount of shipping LF does, she should self insure. Charge every transaction an insurance fee and put it in a separate account. If the post office or UPS break or damage item, you can still go after them even without insurance, because you create a legal bailment when you pay for their 3rd party service. They have a duty of "Reasonable Care" in handling your items. If you can show negligence, like the package run over, you will win. It's tough getting the post office into court, but it can be done. They gotta pay, it's the law. Making them pay may not be worth the time and effort, thus self insuring is the way to go.

    By the logic/argument I'm hearing, if a package is not insured they do not have to deliver it. They can just keep it without any consequence. And there are a whole bunch of laws and precedence in regards the the "company" with the monopoly, writing ambiguous or unenforceable contracts.
  • Don McManusDon McManus Member Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You are throwing up so many straw men my allergies are kicking up.

    I really have no idea whether you know what you are talking about, but the fact of the matter is that the shipper bought insurance and declared the value of the item being insured. The USPS did not establish the value. The shipper and purchaser of the insurance established the value.

    By paying 100% of the declared value, the USPS has satisfied its obligation.

    I suppose someone can weasel themselves around what was an upfront contract, but it does not change the basic fact that the USPS fully discharged its obligation to the shipper based upon the value as stated by the shipper.

    The lesson here is to insure something for what it is worth. Had that been the case, there would have been the option for a pro-rated settlement based upon the amount of the damage. At $ 800.00, there is no money to be saved in trying to determine the residual value of the rifle. So, take the $800.00 or don't make an insurance claim. Don't expect someone else to waste a whole lot of time for your mistake or attempt to save a few bucks on insurance costs.
    Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.

    Brad Steele
  • shootuadealshootuadeal Member Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What was the conclusion on this Kasey?
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What was the conclusion on this Kasey?


    I wrote a check to the buyer for the full purchase price of the gun.......the post office employee that is in charge of our "case" was out of town until yesterday, so I spoke with the postmaster that is holding the gun and let her know I was NOT in agreement with what was happening and not to "destroy" the gun because my plan was to get it back. The $800 check is sitting on my desk from the post office. I hope that they will see the value of the gun and agree to send it back and let the payment they've sent cover the damage they've done. If that isn't the case my plan is to get the gun back and send this check to them. If they end up telling me they've destroyed the gun and the $800 check is the last of this will be the proverbial straw on the postal insurance camel's back because I will be getting private insurance that will cover shipping and never worry about this mess again.


    I do see where "declared value" puts a strain on things.....but the fact that I paid them to deliver a package should be enough, buying $800 worth of insurance shouldn't be warranted at all. Its like buying a meal and having to pay an extra $20 to not be poisoned......well, if you only gave $10 extra you can't say anything if you find yourself sitting on a toilet for the rest of the day....its your own fault for not buying the insurance. Plus, insurance doesn't work this way in any other case. Insurance isn't a backup plan for the post office to BUY the item......its a policy saying they will pay if they damage it.

    This has been a wakeup for me......today was shipping day and I've been all over the lady who makes our shipping labels today making sure its all handled correctly. I swear, I'd sure like to know how people in business end up being able to walk away from everything and it still run smoothly. From printer ink, shipping boxes on hand, insurance, whos items are here, emails, what paperwork is piling up and all the other nonsense there doesn't seem to be a portion that I don't have to keep track of in some way. I thought shipping wasn't one of these things....but I guess it is.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • gearheaddadgearheaddad Member Posts: 15,096 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We ship anywhere from 5 to 50 boxes a day via UPS.
    The ONLY boxes that are EVER lost or destroyed are the ones that we neglected to insure/declare the value on. It's like they know it!

    We just had a $4000.00 shipment of very special(8 week lead time) stainless steel bolts vanish in transit from YRC Freight. Since we ship Class 50 because they are nuts/bolts/ screws/etc, they paid us $1.00/Lb. $900.00 and sent us a freight bill!!

    Sometimes I wonder how I'm able to sleep at night......
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't think I could rest unless I knew it were at least "possible" to insure a box while in transit. We've always given the buyer the option to buy more insurance.....the listed shipping doesn't always cover things fully, but we buy as much insurance as we can for what people pay.

    This particular instance I first thought the buyer chose not to cover things......when he replied to my email that he had paid for full coverage insurance I felt the blood go from my face.

    I don't know if I could handle having random boxes worth $4000 go missing.

    The main thing I've got a major problem with on this thing is the fact that the post office took a gun. That is just crazy. Everything about this whole thing has been wrong.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
  • shootuadealshootuadeal Member Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What was the conclusion on this Kasey?


    I wrote a check to the buyer for the full purchase price of the gun.......the post office employee that is in charge of our "case" was out of town until yesterday, so I spoke with the postmaster that is holding the gun and let her know I was NOT in agreement with what was happening and not to "destroy" the gun because my plan was to get it back. The $800 check is sitting on my desk from the post office. I hope that they will see the value of the gun and agree to send it back and let the payment they've sent cover the damage they've done. If that isn't the case my plan is to get the gun back and send this check to them. If they end up telling me they've destroyed the gun and the $800 check is the last of this will be the proverbial straw on the postal insurance camel's back because I will be getting private insurance that will cover shipping and never worry about this mess again.


    I do see where "declared value" puts a strain on things.....but the fact that I paid them to deliver a package should be enough, buying $800 worth of insurance shouldn't be warranted at all. Its like buying a meal and having to pay an extra $20 to not be poisoned......well, if you only gave $10 extra you can't say anything if you find yourself sitting on a toilet for the rest of the day....its your own fault for not buying the insurance. Plus, insurance doesn't work this way in any other case. Insurance isn't a backup plan for the post office to BUY the item......its a policy saying they will pay if they damage it.

    This has been a wakeup for me......today was shipping day and I've been all over the lady who makes our shipping labels today making sure its all handled correctly. I swear, I'd sure like to know how people in business end up being able to walk away from everything and it still run smoothly. From printer ink, shipping boxes on hand, insurance, whos items are here, emails, what paperwork is piling up and all the other nonsense there doesn't seem to be a portion that I don't have to keep track of in some way. I thought shipping wasn't one of these things....but I guess it is.

    Thats mostly what I was wondering, what happened with the USPS illegally transferring a gun to themselves with no paperwork. I assume you have made contact with your local IO inspector? That would have been my first call.

    Otherwise, I would have done just like you are doing, given the mistake made on the insured amount, give the customer a refund and try and get the gun returned to me, give USPS their check back, try to repair/resell it and cut our losses.

    Keep us posted, I am super interested in the part about them just taking the shotgun.
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/797453046


    Its this one....the wood is split into several parts.
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  • gearheaddadgearheaddad Member Posts: 15,096 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would rather have the broken gun than the $800.00 too!
    I believe replacement wood is available.
    They had to try to break that wood!
  • Locust ForkLocust Fork Member Posts: 31,616 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We may be ok.....the lady that is in charge of all of this has returned and I just spoke with her. She said they need a repair estimate and once they have this we can get the gun sent back to us. So, as long as the postmaster that has been holding it hasn't done anything stupid we may come out ok in all of this. I told her I have refunded the money to the customer and the gun needed to come back here and she said that was fine. They are fine with just handing over to him or me in the end......which is just the strangest thing ever and shows how wrong this whole thing is on their end as far as gun laws go. I mean, if a guy drops a gun off for repair here and it stays beyond a set amount of time I'm legally required to do a background check on him to get his own gun back.....but these postal people think they can just take a gun and do whatever they decide with it. Its CRAZY.
    LOCUST FORK CURRENT AUCTIONS: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Sort=13&IncludeSellers=618902&PageSize=48 Listings added every Thursday! We do consignments, contact us at mckaygunsales@gmail.com
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