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Two simple steps and no more gun shows

bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
edited December 2001 in General Discussion
I don't know how far back you go in guns and gun shows, but gun shows were originally for unlicensed dealers and good ol' boys. I recall the years where it was illegal for licensed firearms dealers to conduct business anywhere other than at the address on their license. They were not permitted to set up and sell at gun shows. Then, several years ago, the AFT created the regulation to permit dealers to do business at gun shows in the states where they were licensed. And that's the way it is today. At any time, I repeat, AT ANY TIME, the ATF can, without any governmental permission or approval, reverse their regulation and make it the way it used to be. They gave dealers permission to sell at shows, and they can take away that "privilege." Understand: dealers have a privilege, not a right to sell at shows. Think about it a moment. If legislation were passed where all gun sales at gun shows had to be handled through a licensed dealer for a background check, then all the ATF would have to do to eliminate gun shows would be to take away the ability for licensed dealers to conduct business at gun shows--that is, make it like it used to be. We are but two small steps away from eliminating gun shows all together. And that would be the "neat and clean" way for the government to do it. Of course. licensed dealers wouldn't cry many tears over that, would they?
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    tidemantideman Member Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bsebast, I'm a licensed dealer and I can assure you the Majority of dealers would be just as irate as you would be if the ATF were to help make it illegal for ANYONE to sell at gun shows. We've got way too much regulation as it is. They need to concentrate on enforcement of the existing laws already on the books. NOT create more laws. Dealers are human, too. Not the enemy.Tideman
    "Don't shoot to stop 'em, Shoot to Destroy 'em!"
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    bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tideman-- I have to disagree with you. I have been a licensed dealer and I know many licensed dealers. The vast majority of them would be tickled pink to see gun shows go away. And none of them have any appreciation for the unlicensed exhibitors at gun shows. [This message has been edited by bsebast (edited 12-24-2001).]
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I choose not to set up at gun shows. There's far too many of them now and there's far too much crap being displayed - not like it was ten or fifteen years ago. Doesn't mean I want them to go away, though.But, if I have to have a license to deal in guns then why doesnt that guy who has four or five tables of modern firearms every weekend?
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, AntiqueDr. I rest my case.
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    I never had a problem with an unlicensed individual disposing of his unwanted guns at a show. I never had a problem with a collector buying, trading, and selling to upgrade his collection.Trouble is, these folks are nearly non-existant at the shows.The ones I did not like were the unlicensed individuals who operated like dealers. Constantly buying, selling and trading for profit, and having no license to do so. They would buy and sell on a handshake. No receipts, no records, no checking of ID, no questions of the buyer as to his residence or legal status. Buying guns with no bill of sale, no ID checked. These guys also did not collect sales tax.It is not well known, but the law in Texas requires a dealer in ANY second-hand merchandise valued at more than $25 to collect name, address, and physical description of any individuals he buys from. Otherwise, should that dealer be found in possession of stolen merchandise, and have no record of its purchase, the law presumes that he knew it was stolen when he bought it.If I had a stolen gun, and wanted to dump it for fast cash, more than I could get at a pawn shop, I would go to a gun show and seek out one of these "unlicensed dealers."Just my two cents.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bsebast,You rested your case on the wrong evidence. Nunn has a clear view of my point. If you are going to be in business, then be in business and do it right.
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The term "right" is a matter of opinion and perspective. Licensed dealers feel anyone in competition with them is not doing things right and need to be shut down. They are not inspired with what's right and wrong, their motivation is greed--they want it all. On the other hand, non-licensed dealers look back and realize the beginning-of-the-end of gun show was when the ATF allowed licensed dealers to set up at shows. Modern guns were not proliferated until licensed dealers, including distributors, started doing shows and selling guns at $5-$10 over wholesale. From a profitability standpoint, they have been their own worst enemy. But be that neither here nor there. The points can be successfully argued from either position. The main point that Joe Six-pack doesn't realize: the gun shows he likes so much are but a whisker away from extinction. While licensed and non-licensed dealers are squabbling among themselves, the ATF, cheered on by liberals, are moving in for the kill.
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    tidemantideman Member Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bsebast, You've presented a very intelligent and convincing point of view. I do know several LARGE dealers that would think it was Christmas every day if the shows closed.I do my best to steer my customers clear of these guys. I also consider it a major point of survival for the "Small Guy" dealer. "Greed is it's own worst enemy"!Tideman
    "Don't shoot to stop 'em, Shoot to Destroy 'em!"
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    Originally, gun shows were usually open to members of the sponsoring club, and it was an opportunity to show off your collection, dispose of unwanted items, and get new ones. It was a swap meet for guns.They evolved into events open to the public, but still basically a swap meet, and attended mainly by collectors and shooters..Dealers were allowed to attend, but could only take orders for delivery at the gun shop. They could not sell at the show.Dealers were then allowed to sell at shows. Dealers were not really in competition with the collectors, nor vice versa.Enter the "ulicensed dealer," whom I described in an earlier post. This guy is the problem. He can offer more money when he buys a gun, for he has no overhead. He can get more money when he sells, because lots of people prefer to buy a gun with "NO PAPERWORK." He cheats the state by not collecting sales tax, and this gives him another advantage over the legitimate dealer. He also buys and sells with no record keeping, and without regard for whether the transfer is legal. This is the guy most of the gun-haters have in mind when they talk about the "gun show loophole." Whether we care to admit it or not, this seller exists.I still see lots of shooters and collectors at the shows. I also see changes in the attendees. Here are a few of the people I am seeing that I would rather not: The illegal alien willing to offer $150 for a $50 gun if it is sold without paperwork. Squads of obvious gang members showing an inordinate interest in AKs, SKS, and Tec-9s, but only if sold without papers. Skinhead types with swastika and "White Power" tattoos. Hot check writers. Shoplifters. "Buyers" with no ID, but they always have a buddy with them willing to complete the paperwork.You never saw these types at the shows 20 years ago.I am thankful for the Internet and Gunbroker. I don't go to shows much anymore,because I can do much better here.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It doesnt matter to me if licensed dealers can set up at gun shows or not, I still dont. I dont because in my area you can literally drive to a gun show every weekend. They've oversaturated the marketplace, and shows around here are now aisle after aisle of heaping piles of mil-surp clothing, books, non-gun stuff, the dealer/distributor types you mention, and some individuals. Same folks, same stuff - hell, same customers walking in the door trying to sell THEIR stuff for retail. A huge waste of time for most dealers.You are defending an individual's right to buy and sell guns as he sees fit and I agree with that. Where we separate is that I believe that if that individual is buying and selling guns as a business then he should have to operate as a legitimate business. Let's move your logic forward, bsebast, and see how it merits.How many legitimate truck drivers do we have on this forum? You keep up your commercial license and all the endorsements, right? Your logbook? Your truck up to snuff? Of course you do, you're legitimate. Under bsebast's argument - you're greedy! You're greedy for not appreciating Joe Six-Pack's right to go rent a Ryder truck and haul cargo without all the licensing and regulation you have to go through.Now, does that sound right?Addendum -Your post makes reference to "non-licensed dealer." Exactly what does that mean, and how do you correlate that with GCA '68?
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com [This message has been edited by AntiqueDr (edited 12-24-2001).]
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    BlueTicBlueTic Member Posts: 4,072
    edited November -1
    So when I go to a second-hand swap meet with a bunch of stuff from my shop (odds and ends, tools) 2 or 3 times a year just for fun and to see if there may be something I want, I come under the ridicule of the government and licensed dealers. The government because they just have to know what I have in my shop and that what I sell has been properly Taxed (even though Taxes have been payed over and over)or that I am not a thief (I'm guilty unless I provide proof of inocence).The Dealers who have choosen this proffession and deal day in and out with the new merchandise, but wait, they want the exclusive on the used merchandise because I have no way to keep PROPER records of my used power saw or grinder. God knows that an individual should not have the freedom to have tools without reporting them and going through a background check and safety course on tablesaws. You know the government is the only entity that can make those decisions for us and grants sole profitability to licensed dealers, because after your 20% commissions on your quotes we never come out ahead on buying and selling anyway. I care not if I offend - You dealers who do not like me swaping and trading can kiss my so called FREE *. I, again, might do this 2-3 times a year and maybe fill up 1 table with my stuff, which should be not one bit of your concern....
    IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
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    badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Uh, have any of you read the Second Ammendment lately? Also what constitutional law prohibits a person from selling or giving away personal property?
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good Lord, BlueTic, you didnt read any of the above? Nobody has a problem with an individual selling off stuff! But let's say you decided, "Hey, I can make a pretty good side living off of this!" and started cruising pawn shops and classified ads to buy inventory for resale. NOW you're no longer Joe Six-Pack selling off stuff 2-3 times a year. You're there every weekend with an ever-expanding display of merchandise. NOW you are "in business."Do you not see a difference?
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    BlueTicBlueTic Member Posts: 4,072
    edited November -1
    I do see the difference and do not like that the few that do this for a business are unlicensed. If I have a hobby (where is the line - draw it in the sand so I may cross over) and do make a few good swaps or sell for a little more than I payed - are you out anything. If I had the chance, I would love to be a dealer, but for now my bread and butter comes from welding. My collecting and trading would not even buy the bread - much less the butter.. I am glad if I make enough to pay for the trip and a few good meals with my wife (oh - thats not from proffit - thats from selling 1 or 2 guns for about the same as I paid...
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Then you and I are on the same page.I am still waiting on the definition of a "non-licensed dealer" though.
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, AntiqueDr, I will try to state it the way the ATF does: "If a person buys and sells a firearm with the primary motive of profit, that person is considered to be dealing in firearms. Anyone dealing in firearms, by ATF regulations, must have a Federal Firearms Dealers License."For the sake of this discussion, I don't think I have a better definition. But I must point out, the ATF's regulation is just that--a regulation. Our elected representatives haven't passed a law as such. They have given the ATF the authority to "regulate" the manufacture, buying, selling, transportation, etc. of firearms. So, if Joe Six-pack's next door neighbor says he has a gun he would like to sell, and Joe Six-pack thinks, "heck, I think I can sell that gun to John Doe for $5 more than that," if Joe buys the gun and sells it to John, he is subject to the full rath of the Federal government. (Not to mention the licensed dealers who wanted that $5).
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    (sigh)
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    BlueTicBlueTic Member Posts: 4,072
    edited November -1
    LOL Dr.
    IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
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    sandman2234sandman2234 Member Posts: 894 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kind of like a Union/non-Union post. Lots of discussion, and...no results.
    Have Gun, will travel
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    bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sandman-- I didn't expect results from this topic. I was just hoping to get some different points of view out on the table, which, thanks to all the participants, happened. I also hope some of the bystander readers got an idea of how different gun show exhibitors viewed the process. Personally, I too am out of the gun show loop. Like AntiqueDr and Nunn said, they are not much fun any more. And with the feds breathing down the exhibitor's necks, they aren't worth the potential trouble.Thanks to all you guys, and hopefully your feathers aren't so ruffled they won't smooth back down. It's been fun on this end. Hope you had fun too.God bless you, and Merry Christmas. [This message has been edited by bsebast (edited 12-24-2001).]
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    boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    I've attended gun shows off and on for the last 30 years. From what I've seen lately, in Kansas, the big difference between the shows now and those of 30 years ago is the virtual lack of "unlicensed" dealers. Most of the "paperless" transactions I see are between people carrying guns in the isle, not from the tables of "unlicensed" dealers. In these parts, I think most everyone is aware of the ATF undercover agents working the shows and gathering information on unlicensed dealers. Those tables with "paperless" guns available are generally run by guys who decide to set-up at one, perhaps two shows each year. Most of those "unlicensed" individuals I see displaying regularly at shows obviously have an area of specialization and a true interest in collecting a particular type for firearm. The competition they pose to dealers is negligable.Stolen guns can, and have been sold to legitimate FFL dealers, and those dealers have turned around and unknowingly sold the stolen guns. Just because an FFL fills out a form on a firearm doesn't assure the gun isn't hot.Nor do I see many gang bangers out trying to buy paperless guns. Not in this part of the country. A few years ago it was pretty common, but I think that stiffer prosecution of crimes has dried these guys up, as has the high prices of the guns they use to consider desireable. Now, over the past couple of years there have been a couple of cases of these gang bangers stealing guns from tables at local shows, but the victims were legitimate FFL dealers. At least, everyone at the shows assumes it was people who fit a certain profile. There were so few of them, they were easy to spot.I own guns I've bought from dealers, and guns I've bought from private transactions. For myself, I have made a committment that the day private transactions at guns shows becomes illegal is the day my collection of guns will be considered complete. When it becomes illegal for me to sell a gun from my personal collection to another individual without involving an FFL is the last day I will buy any guns from anybody, save antique or black powder firearms. I know others who feel the same way. Because as of that date, the government really will be able to start monitoring exactly how many and what type of guns a person has.
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    xfirexfire Member Posts: 120 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    too antiqedr if the pawn shop sells it to himhe can't move it or is makeing profit??what do you care?we are a free country .we must belive our citezens are good otherwise we fail.I trust you with a gun.you must trust me to be free.wake up.I trust 100 armed average men more than one politian.the more armed average men the better.f n ditto.
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    boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    Are there any FFL dealers on gunbroker avoiding the payment of sales tax because they are selling out of state?
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    An out of state sale is not subject to sales tax. To collect or not to collect makes little difference to the dealer. He doesn't get to keep it--he just forwards it to the state.When the gun gets to where it is going, the dealer may have to collect tax based on the value of the gun, or he may have to collect tax only on the transfer fee. Here in Texas, we collect tax on the transfer fee.The last time you ordered something from Sportsmans Guide or Cabela's, did you pay sales tax. Probably not.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    xfire,I am awake, although I admit difficulty in deciphering your point.bsebast, no ruffling here, sir. Merry Christmas!
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    I don't order anything from Cabellas or Sportsmans Guide. My FFL doesn't charge me any transfer fee (hence no sales tax) because we are old friends. I just return different favors for him at times.
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I dont think anyone here has suggesting or condoned closing down gun shows, or outlawing private sales.Your example is a pertinent one, I'm glad you brought it up. You can sell up to three cars without having to get a dealer's license. You dont complain that if you desire to sell more than that, you will have to get the license - why? Isnt that exactly the same thing?Perhaps it will be clearer by example:1) Joe Six-Pack (I really like that term and may adopt it for future use) has accumulated some guns that are excess to his needs. He sets up at a gun show and sells/trades for stuff he wants. This is only an occasional exercise for Joe.2) Bob Case-O-Beer does not have a firearms license but sets up every weekend at gun shows. He actively buys, sells and trades and spends much of his free time searching pawn shops and classified ads to find guns to resell on the weekend. Bob does not check to see if the sales he makes are legal under federal or state law.1) OK2) Not OK - illegal.You want to know why the anti's are bringing so much bad press on gun shows? Do you know where they got the idea for the "gun show loophole?" Bob's your problem, here, not the licensed dealers.
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    7mm_ultra_mag_is_king7mm_ultra_mag_is_king Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I guess it's time for the ATF and the IRS to head for the flea markets. Awfull lot of un taxed sales there by reqular "dealers" and alot of old shotguns that you see every sunday sold over and over. Seems people make livings selling just about anything "under the table" but when it comes to gun shows the crapola hits the fan. I have nothing against dealers or private sellers, I shop for prices, sometimes the dealer has the deal sometimes private does and I will gladly follow the law when required to do so. I got nothing to hide. I agree that if someone sells repeatedly all the time and always has different guns for sale he is asking for trouble and if I was a dealer and had a fella down the isle from me all the time selling and trading I would get upset because he IS cheating me and the other dealers because if the dealer has to play by the rules then so does he. And the point was already made about the guy selling off his collection so I wont bother with that.
    when all else fails........................
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    guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,463 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey,Why don't you licensed dealers put on a show for licensed dealers to sell at only? I think half the business you guys do is from folks like me who come to shows looking for that special deal on a private firearm. I like the U/L dealers. They sell me guns with no paperwork. What the hell is wrong with that? I'm legal! I don't think the goverment needs to know about every gun I own. So a guy makes a few bucks on the side selling guns, So what? If your against private sellers, your against the second amendment.
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    And one day you are out tooling around and get stopped by a nice police officer or game warden. He examines your gun. 'Tis a rare officer indeed that can resist running a NCIC check on a gun. The check shows the gun to be stolen. You don't remember from whom you bought it, just "some guy" at a gun show. You have no receipt, no record, no one to go back to. You, my friend, at the very least, are going to be minus one gun. You may also be out a tow charge, and bail, and legal fees to get it all sorted out.Buy a gun from a dealer, new or used, and you have a receipt. Should it turn out to be stolen, you can show where you got it. The cops then talk to the dealer. The dealer has a record of where he got it. Eventually, the trail may lead to the thief. At the very least, it will remove you from the equation, and you can go back to the dealer for your money. I can't speak for all dealers, but in that case, I will give you a full refund.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Against the Second Amendment? That's a bit of a reach, isnt it? I keep a copy of that very amendment laminated on the wall - dont see the word "sell" anywhere.I may not like the laws we have to abide by, but I abide by them. If (hopefully not when, but if) they DO legislate against gun shows and/or come after Internet auction sites, I guarantee it wont be the licensed dealers to blame.Think...
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I shop for price too, when I know what I want. The gun stores here in town all have their quirks, but one thing in common -- they all tend to sell higher than the gun show prices. I used to have an FFL and get the wholesale catalogs, so I know something about mark-up. And if you buy Shotgun News or Gun List you can learn quite a bit too. All in all, now that I'm a consumer I'd prefer to buy here in town for the convenience, but find gun shows have a number of legitimate advantages. First, some dealers sell for less, even the out of town legitimate ones. Second, there's a much larger selection. Third there are lots of out of production pieces to select from, whereas the majority of the gun shops here have the same new stock and only a small rack of used or out of production stock. Fourth, there lots of parts and accessories, grips, magazines, for everything you may already own, whether it's still in production or not. Fifth, there's military surplus stuff and it's not all over-priced (you have to shop around before buying). I always come home with tired feet, a sack of goodies, and feeling great. Even if I couldn't afford a gun that day. When any gun store can provide that "adult toy store" quality and make me feel like I got some bargains too, they'll have a customer for life. In the meantime, I'll fight for the right to keep having gun shows. Here in Fort Wayne, Indiana, we have 'em about every 6 weeks all winter long. Next one is January 5 and 6. I'm saving those after Christmas bucks. And I'm not bothering to go down and see if my local store has a Federal H&K G3 Carbine clone for sale -- because I'm sure by shopping price at the show I could get one for less. I've already seen the SOG ads in Gun List and Shotgun News so I know dealers are able to buy them for $489 plus shipping. So what do you suppose I'll want to pay? If you guess $600 or more, guess again..... Oh, and one more thing -- If gun shows go away, local stores will still have to compete with Gunbroker.com and the rest of the classified publications. Some shops want to add a percentage to receive an out-of-town sale -- but others will settle for as little as a $5 or $10 fee for getting your mail. Right now, some gun shop is offering H&K G3 Carbine auctions by the bushel at around $579-589 plus shipping. So there's no point in a local shop trying to get $739 from me for one of these.
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    whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    antiqueDR:Did I mention that a 6X55 is a little light for moose?Clouder..
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes, I believe you did, Clouder. And I will agree that 6.5 is a touch on the light side, all things considered. My choice would be something in .338.
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, speaking for the situation in the far North woods, I've never seen a table at a gun show up here where the exhibitor was selling firearms and was not an FFL. And there are signs all over the place stating that is not permitted to conduct transactions other than with exhibitors (i.e., between patrons), so until now, I could not begin to understand what this 'gun show loophole' BS was all about. Don't know if there are any laws / regs involved or if that's just the promoters' / sponsors' policy to avoid hassles w/ Uncle or their dealers. Looks like most of you folks have more options than we do up here. And I agree w/ many of those posting, I do most of my buying at shows or on line rather than pay retail+ . . . but, my interest is 99% in collector ammo. 'Course, w/o gun sales, the shows would dry up overnight.
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    bsebastbsebast Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Iconoclast-- Thanks for your input. I was hoping this thread would be informative. Looks like it has been.
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    boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    AntiqueDr,"You want to know why the anti's are bringing so much bad press on gun shows? Do you know where they got the idea for the "gun show loophole?" Bob's your problem, here, not the licensed dealers."I think some of the FFL dealers here are falling into the anti-gun forces pit of suggesting that firearms purchased from "unlicensed" dealers at gunshows are frequently used in crimes. AntiqueDr, by suggesting that the anti-gun forces are justified in complaining about the paperless trail at gunshows overlooks the fact that statistically only 1 or 2 percent of such guns are ever used in crimes. At least, that is the figure I hear quoted most often. I would be interested in hearing a comparison. What percentage of guns purchaces from FFL dealers are used in crimes? How does that compare to the percentage of "crime guns" obtained through private transactions at gunshows?There is an inference here that the guns purchased in private transactions at gunshows are more frequently used in crimes (or are stolen), hence, only FFL dealers should be allowed to sell at gunshows.I wouldn't be surprised to hear the FFL dealers here suggest that the 1968 law that brought the FFL into existance was a good idea! Perhaps the FFL dealers here think it was a good idea to prohibit the mail-order sale of firearms without any requirement to go through an FFL. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?As far as promoting the fear of having it discovered that the firearms purchased from private sales are hot, I'd sure like to see some statistics to back up any such claim. However, I do know that in a few States, it used to be (and might still be the law) that if pawn shop owners were discovered with stolen merchandise, they could still charge the original owner the amount it took to purchase the item. In other words, pawn shop owners could (or can) buy stolen firearms without any real concern about the firearm being hot, because they were guaranteed to at least break even on the deal. So where are "hot" firearms most likely to be bought?Let me ask the FFL dealers here, is what I'm hearing, "firearms laws are bad, but because they are laws, because we are legitimate FFL dealers, we should profit from the bad laws and ordinary citizens shouldn't". By taking the position you seem to be taking, it seems you are saying that some of the laws the anti-gun forces have promoted and passed were good ideas. I don't buy into that line of thought for one minute.[This message has been edited by boeboe (edited 12-27-2001).]
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    AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Again, a missed point. Wow.Regardless of whether or not these unlicensed "dealers" are knowingly selling stolen guns or knowingly selling to unqualified purchasers, these "unlicensed" dealers are the focal point of the anti-gun people vs gun show argument. This is an excellent example of "a bad apple spoils the bunch."If I wanted to be a truck driver, I would get the appropriate licenses. If I wanted to be a plumber, I'd get the appropriate licenses. If I wanted to be a pawnbroker, I'd get the appropriate licenses. But I guess that's just me.
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    I don't think the dealers have a big problem with the unlicensed habitual sellers. Dealers did not ask for GCA '68, did they? That was when mail order guns went the way of the Dodo. There were still gun shops, and gun shows when you could order via direct mail from Klein's, were there not?My problem with the unlicensed habitual seller is the cavalier attitude with which he dispenses his wares. As I said before, and it still rings true: If I had a stolen gun to sell, I would sell it to this guy. And why not? He is going to hand me my cash and let me walk away without ever asking to see ID or ask me to sign a bill of sale. If he, or his customer get caught with it, there is no way of tracking it to me. That is the truth, and all of us know it.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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