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Gun deal gone sour

nddvmnddvm Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
edited October 2001 in General Discussion
I would appreciate any suggestions on how to proceed with this problem. I made a "side deal" on a weapon that had been listed a number of times on Gunbroker. The seller used the NRA condition grading system. In this case he chose NRA "Fine" to describe the weapon. The seller responded to my questions. In particular, he said that the wood finish was original. When I received the carbine it was obvious that the hand guard and butt stock had been severely sanded altering the shape and removing distinctive features. The seller is a pawn broker and NRA Life member in Florida. He refused to accept my complaints about the NRA condition discrepancies as reason to refund my money. My state attorney general's office will act only as a arbitrator. They can pursue no legal action against this business. I have filed a complaint with the Orlando-area Better Business Bureau. Since this was a non-auction "side deal" I can't leave negative feedback. Does anybody have ideas on legitimate ways to get my money back? After 25 years of dealing thorugh the mail, buying and selling with a C & R license, this is the first time this has happened to me. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Comments

  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you feel that the seller has made a serious misrepresentation of the item and you sent payment by US Mail, you may be able to file a mail fraud claim with the US Post Office for mail fraud. Contact your local Post Office and ask for the number of the local Postal Inspector. The Postal Inspector will send you the necessary claim forms. You may also be able to file a complaint with the US Federal Trade Commission (FTC). Go to the For Buyers section on GB to get the link..(This is a cut and paste from that page)[This message has been edited by concealedG36 (edited 10-19-2001).]
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't have an answer based on any knowledge of how GB Admin works, but....Does this guy post other items for sale on GB? If so I would think you could log on to one of those sites and give him a blast through that. Will GB Admin. do anything for you? I'm pretty sure that Gun Broker doesn't want to be associated guys like him.They have a reputation to protect.Many, many of the people who patronize the auction also read the BB's. List his name and your complaint. It couldn't hurt.Mudge
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 10-19-2001).]
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  • bfairbfair Member Posts: 250 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First inform him you are going to post his sellers name all over the discussion groups.Follow his listings and warn the bidder's of his auctions of his actions.
    Home of the Blue Angels, P'colaSemper Paratus
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  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd say you've already lost any negotiating power if you've filed a complaint with the BBB and have contacted your Attorney General.There is a certain amount of subjectivity to the grading systems--you probably should have tried to seek a third opinion (one you could both agree to) before taking the action you've already taken. You do understand that sellers have buyers who "change their mind" then try to get their money back claiming the condition was not as described. How much money was involved in the transaction? (And please don't tell me "it's the principle"!) How much difference in value would there be between this firearm in "fine" condition vs. the "fair" condition, I'm guessing you're claiming, it is in? If the dollar amount was high, did you request an inspection period?And of course I have to ask: 25 years collecting and you haven't learned to be careful with pawnbrokers? (No offense to anyone, but pawnbrokers are not the first thing I think of when considering collectable firearms.)
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  • nddvmnddvm Member Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for all your helpful suggestions. I didn't realize the seller was a pawnbroker until I got his FFL. He had close to 90 Gunbroker feedback entries. All but one was "A+". I am out $449 on a Marlin Model 1936 carbine. I was willing to pay more than current auction value for the carbine since I wanted one in .32 spc, especially in NRA "Fine" condition. I told him that after considering his pre-offer e-mail answers to my questions and trusting his auction description (NRA grading and additional comments in the ad) I would take him at his word and not expect a return priviledge. He accepted my "side offer" without further comment. Since he committed the fraud by misrepresenting the carbine I felt that he should still take back the carbine. Naive on my part, but my value system must be different from his. He phoned me after I sent an e-mail about the carbine regarding the heavily sanded condition. He said he would not accept a return under any circumstances. That is why I immediately proceeded to the attorney general's office. I did pay by US Postal Service money order so my next stop might be at the mail fraud window. I have pictures comparing his carbine to one that was correctly graded in lesser condition (NRA "very good"; Auction Arms). If anyone is interested I will e-mail scans. Thanks, again.
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  • usmc2498215usmc2498215 Member Posts: 82 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If this is truly important to you, don't hesitate to share his information with us.
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  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    I may be way off base, but if it were me, I'd find one of his auctions and bid on it, then not pay, just to be able to post the negative feedback on him. You might find one of his auctions that has some bidders and outbid them so he looses the sale. After the auction closes, contact the other bidders and tell them why you outbid them so he will have a hard time selling it to them. Then post the negative feedback. You might get hit with negative feedback from him, but you would have got the same negative feedback anyway, right? In your feedback on him, say you have photos you can supply potenetial buyers of the deal he made with you, and supply them on request. At least it will cause him considerable heartache trying to undo what happened.
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  • GreenLanternGreenLantern Member Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How did you pay for the gun? MO? CC? I always prefer to pay by CC (not via PayPal) for the extra security incase the deal isn't up to par. It may be an extra 3-4% but if you're talking about a high $$ item then it's a small priceGL
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  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,078 ******
    edited November -1
    I may be off a bit here, but I don't think Admin will allow the posting of the seller's name or any factors that can easily lead the reader to his identity.Never make a side deal unless you are certain of the buyer/seller. Never buy anything you did not see a picture of.Since the seller is a registered GB user, you might try asking Admin to intercede.Long before I got online, I sold guns with word ads in Gun List. A three-day inspection was part of the deal. A phone call always preceded payment, and it usually involved a detailed description.But if you do decide to defame the seller on a discussion board, make it somewhere besides this one. Thanks. PS: The fact that the seller is a pawnbroker is no indication of his inherent honesty or dishonesty. Some pawnbrokers are very knowledgeable and honest, some are less so. Some may be a bit dishonest, but let's not tar them all with the same brush.BTW I am not one, but I do know some.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord![This message has been edited by nunn (edited 10-19-2001).]
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  • AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I seriously doubt you will get anywhere with the mail fraud route. It will boil down to your opinion of the condition vs his opinion of the condition, with relatively vague guidelines to go by. No prosecutor would ever deal with that.Interfering with his other auctions? The seller could go to GB's Admin and request you be blocked from the site for violating the User Agreement.My advice is to buy a nicer 36 Carbine (#2252866 currently on auction is a possibility) and sell the one you've got. The net total cost is what you'll have in the rifle you want...
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think when you waived the inspection and return period, you effectively gave up your right to do so. It seems to me you have little recourse when you have said to the buyer, you will accept it as is. Whether he defrauded you or is just not a competent evaluator, you said yourself you waived your right to inspect and return the gun. I do not see that you have a legitemate complaint at this point.
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  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,078 ******
    edited November -1
    Admin has never allowed beefs against buyers and sellers to appear here. There are mechanisms in place for that.Since this sale did not go through Gunbroker, those mechanisms are not available.I suggested that the buyer contact admin and ask them to try and intercede, since both buyer and seller are GB users. I copied the thread and sent it to admin because I am concerned for this situation. IF admin does get involved in this, and it would not surprise me either way, it will be only as a courtesy to buyer and seller, not as any kind of official arbitrator of this argument.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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  • turboturbo Member Posts: 820 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Check the auction rules for buyers and sellers. Big mistake to make side deals not covered under the auspicious of the rules and regulations established by GB for everyones protection.GB also has, insurance/assurances in place to protect all parties, but once outside of the realm of GB, it becomes a bigger problem.Hopefully GB will help out, and resolve this matter.I would like to know who this dealer is, I've purchased some antique rifles, and would make it a point not to deal with this individual in the future, because of this.Good luck.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mail fraud is a very touchy subject. People watch movies and read stories about "mail fraud" and think that it applies to any crime where the mail system was used to facilitate the actions of the criminal. This is not the case in the real world. Few claims of mail fraud actually fit the bill. My experience with postal inspectors has shown that they are weak and poor interrogators/investigators at best. When I was working in NY they used the investigative skills of my office to do their job for them. I wouldn't count on "mail fraud" as being a viable alternative. The misrepresentation (hence, the fraud) occurred when he misrepresented the item to you via email or telephone. The item was merely sent by mail. If "mail fraud" was cried every time a defective or poorly-performing product was received, there would be a national "mail fraud" crisis. To the layman, this sounds all fine and dandy. In practical application, you don't have much to stand on with the postal inspectors.
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  • Walt NunleyWalt Nunley Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    sORRY BUT ADMIN WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO POST USEFUL INFORMATION THAT MIGHT SAVE SOMEONE IN THE FUTURE SOME MONEY BIDDING ON A BAD SALE.SHAME OPN YOU FOR EVEN TRYING TO THINK OF SAVING OTHERS SOME HEARTACHE.ADMIN WILL SAY THERE ARE AVENUES TO EXPRESS YOUR TROUBLES,HOWEVER,THOSE AVENUES SEEM TO BE CLOSED TO EVERYONE BUT ADMIN.I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL OF THESE POSTS DELETED.IF WE AS A GROUP CAN NOT WARN EACH OTHER VIA POSTING OUR DISSATISFACTION WITH A SELLER THEN WHATS THE POINT??????????????
    Submarine Sailor,Truck Driver,and very bad typist.GO RUSTY #2
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  • zombiedawgzombiedawg Member Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Very true , Walt
    RANGE ME
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  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,078 ******
    edited November -1
    Mr. Nunley, I too have thought that it might be a good thing for users to have a forum for warning others about untrustworthy sellers.However, I can also see where such a forum could be abused, and I fully understand why the site owners will not allow it.I think all of us can understand that the owners of a particular site can and do set rules for the use thereof, and that the users of the site have a choice of abiding by the rules, or not using the site.There is a Board of Inquiry set up for the purpose of exchanging information about unethical sellers on the Bowers board. www.subguns.com Follow links.[This message has been edited by nunn (edited 10-20-2001).]
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