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views on Frangible Ammunition?

APBTloverAPBTlover Member Posts: 128
edited August 2003 in General Discussion
I watched a show on T.V a couple of nights ago and it was comparing traditional lead core bullets with new frangible bullets and said that frangible is the future for law enforcement and the military.Does any one know what these rounds have to offer other than they break apart when hitting some thing hard?Do they have a good ability to completely disable an assailant?I have never fired any of these rounds so I know nothing about them.

Comments

  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
    edited November -1
    Far as I know, all they are good for is training.

    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
  • rldowns3rldowns3 Member Posts: 6,096
    edited November -1
    Nothing wrong with the frangibles. In the typical gunfight now in the U.S. odds are there will be innocents standing around or mabye caught in the midst of the fight and with the probability of overpenetration of your typical cartridge loads I think frangibles would lower your liability potential. It won't shoot completely through your assailant and strike somebody standing around behind him. That's precisely what you don't want of course.

    If we are talking about the same TV show I believe they also demonstrated a type of "smart" frangible round where it has the ability to detect a hard surface or a soft "flesh like" surface and it changes it's properties depending on which target it hits. Like with the side of beef they blasted with one of those new fangled rounds and it basically turned it into hamburger but the round never passed through but they shot plate steel with it and it bored a hole clean through it and hit the beef on the other side and blew apart the beef.....are we talking about the same show?

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  • APBTloverAPBTlover Member Posts: 128
    edited November -1
    That is the same show it was on The History Channel and it destroyed that piece of meat.
  • rldowns3rldowns3 Member Posts: 6,096
    edited November -1
    Yea. I think it was modern marvels or something like that.....was a good informative show.

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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nothing like that is currently available to civilians, and if/when it is it will be expensive. We already have good semi-frangibles which stick together until they hit a person and then separate in all directions inside the body. But these rounds will not penetrate a steel plate first. In fact, they are designed not to penetrate hard surfaces; only softer targets, with the theoretical benefits being added safety from ricochet and no over-penetration. Glaser and Mag-Safe are the two most noted manufacturers of the semi-frangibles currently available, and you pay over $20 for 6 rounds. They are, however, highly rated -- about as effective as the best of the HP loads as manstoppers. They are hi-velocity, low-weight loads and pretty painful so I hear. A recent review of the MagSafe Defender rounds for the 7.62x25 Tokarev clocked them at a remarkable 2200 fps at the muzzle from a CZ-52.

    T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

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  • paboogerpabooger Member Posts: 13,953
    edited November -1
    Many of the frangibles are made here in nearby Elk County, where there are many pressed metal plants! There not hard to get around here if you know someone who works there. A friend of mine had some that he reloaded in 9mm. They look like fine grains of grey compressed sawdust!
    I agree I bet they would make a mess out of you if you get hit by them.

    pacamo

    To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
    This was the Ancient law of Youth
    Old times are past, old times are done:
    But the Law runs true, O little son!
  • outdoortexasoutdoortexas Member Posts: 4,780
    edited November -1
    Help me here.

    I have never owned any, but just ordered these in 22 LR. Thought they might be good for headshots on squirrels. Am I wasting my money?
  • APBTloverAPBTlover Member Posts: 128
    edited November -1
    I went searching around on the net and ran across a company that offers a bullet called the Totally Fragmenting Soft Point which has some extreme muzzle velocities but very low bullet weights.The company is called RBCD but I didnt see any prices on their site just a list of dealers.They also have gelatin tests and pictures on there.Anyone know of the quality of this ammunition?
  • paboogerpabooger Member Posts: 13,953
    edited November -1
    During July 2002 the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center (NLECTC), a program of the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), was made aware of an informal report concerning the testing of a frangible bullet against body armor, where a portion of the bullet penetrated the armor. As several independent sources notified us of this report, NIJ requested that staff of the Office of Law Enforcement Standards (OLES) investigate this matter to research the likelihood of frangible ammunition penetrating ballistic-resistant armor.

    Frangible bullets, which are composites of hybrid materials either pressed together at high pressure or glued together with adhesives, are primarily used in training exercises to reduce lead hazards on firing ranges. Frangible bullets are designed to break up into smaller pieces upon contact with harder objects or surfaces. These small fragments quickly lose energy and significantly reduce the possibility of injury from ricochet, making them ideal for use in training exercises.

    Continuing with our mission to provide accurate research data to the public safety community, NIST/OLES will conduct a limited series of controlled tests using frangible bullets and body armor. This work will also support a new initiative to produce a Selection and Applications Guide for Frangible Ammunition. This project is expected to be completed in approximately 12 months.

    November 2002 Update

    At the request of the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), staff of the Office of Law Enforcement Standards (OLES), located at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has conducted a limited series of tests evaluating the performance of frangible ammunition against body armor. This preliminary study was designed to attempt to establish the validity of claims that these types of rounds pose a potential safety threat to personal body armor. Limited calibers, manufacturers, and types of frangible bullets were selected and tested against randomly available models and designs of body armor.

    Two types of frangible bullets were tested: a jacketed hot pressed powdered metal and a non-jacketed sintered/hot pressed powdered metal bullet. Both bullets were 9 mm RNFP designs, weighing 100 grains. The armors were of hybrid construction, employing combinations of aramid and polyethylene ballistic fiber materials and layers. NIJ compliant Type II and IIIA protection armors were tested using both types of frangible bullets. The tests were conducted using NIJ Standard-0101.04 backing material conditioned to meet the standard's drop test criteria. The test methods used were NIJ Standard-0101.04 Penetration and Backface Signature (P-BFS) tests and Ballistic Limit evaluations. P-BFS test velocities were varied to include NIJ reference velocities and recommended manufacturer service velocities (approximately 1150 - 1250 ft/s).

    The results of these preliminary, limited tests indicate that frangible bullets may represent an unconventional threat to personal body armor, when contrasted with traditional lead based bullets. The true scope and relevance of this threat are not yet known, and additional research is being done by NIST/OLES to fully evaluate and quantify this concern. In support of these efforts, NIJ requests that all agencies and parties who have conducted their own testing of frangible ammunition against body armor contact its Compliance Testing Program Office at NLECTC-National, located in Rockville, MD. Contact may be made by e-mail through asknlectc@nlectc.org, or by phone at 800-248-2742. All information provided by agencies will be considered proprietary and confidential.

    Additionally, NIST/OLES staff would like to determine the extent that frangible ammunition is currently in use by law enforcement agencies, in order to properly assess the need for further/more extensive review of this issue. A brief survey has been prepared in support of this effort. Agencies interested in participating in this survey can obtain a copy by contacting the Compliance Testing Office at NLECTC-National at the telephone number or e-mail address listed above.

    Please direct any inquires or requests for information on this topic to NLECTC at 800-248-2742.

    May 2003 Update

    As a result of the preliminary ballistic penetration tests that indicated the need for more extensive tests done on a broader range of materials, a test plan has been developed. Currently, testing materials are being procured for these studies. Ballistic panels of standardized constructions are being made from the full range of ballistic resistant materials commonly used today, specifically: Aramids, PBOs, and Polyethylenes. Both woven fabrics and shield fabrics will be assessed, at both normal (0-degree) and 30-degree angles of incidence. Three types of frangible bullets will be used in this evaluation, sintered/pressed metals, jacketed pressed metals, and metal/polymer composites. After all test materials have been procured, the ballistic tests will occur in June/July 2003.

    A brief survey asking about frangible ammunition use was distributed to various law enforcement and corrections agencies in support of this effort. To date, 57 agencies have responded. While more responses would be welcome and perhaps lead to better conclusions, the results are believed to be representative of the overall public safety community. To date, the following data have been collected:

    42% of the respondents utilize frangible ammunition in their department/agency.
    Usage of frangible ammunition by these respondents:
    Practice - 27%
    Training - 61%
    Duty - 12%
    Calibers of frangible ammunition in use by the respondents:
    9mm - 30%
    40 S&W - 28%
    .38 Special - 8%
    .357 Magnum - 2%
    .45 ACP - 15%
    Others - 17% (Includes .357 Sig, 12 gauge, .223 caliber)
    Recovery or use of frangible ammunition in criminal activity:
    3% of respondents to this question
    Agencies interested in participating in this survey can obtain a copy by contacting the Compliance Testing Office at NLECTC-National at the telephone number or e-mail address listed below.

    In continuing support of these efforts, NIJ requests that all agencies and parties who have conducted their own testing of frangible ammunition against body armor contact its Compliance Testing Program Office at NLECTC-National, located in Rockville, MD. Contact may be made by e-mail through asknlectc@nlectc.org, or by phone at 800-248-2742. All information provided by agencies will be considered proprietary and confidential.



    pacamo

    To Ride, shoot straight,and speak the truth
    This was the Ancient law of Youth
    Old times are past, old times are done:
    But the Law runs true, O little son!
  • APBTloverAPBTlover Member Posts: 128
    edited November -1
    I just took a look at the MagSafe web site they look good,not quite as fast as the RBCD stuff and they are pretty exspensive but if they work like they say I guess the price is not as important as what you pay for.RBCD is significantly faster though and I beleive their muzzle energy is higher on just about all the rounds I saw.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I saw a steel plate RBCD used for demos . . . lead bullets bounce off leaving a smear of metal while the RBCD rounds break up - but not before putting a major dent in the plate. I don't know about penetration but even if it broke up on a vest, the target would know it.
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