Here we go - it really hits the fan now.

Iconoclast

GAZA (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet cut off contact with Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat Thursday, saying it holds him directly responsible for an ambush of a bus in the West Bank Wednesday that killed 10 and injured 30 others. "Chairman Arafat has made himself irrelevant as far as Israel is concerned, and therefore no contacts will be maintained with him," the Cabinet said in a statement early Thursday. The Cabinet said Israel would send its own troops to the West Bank and Gaza to arrest suspected terrorists and confiscate weapons. ==================JMHO, but I believe this is exactly what Hamas & the rest wanted. Every fire-breathing fanatic will be out stirring up the masses throughout the Islamic world. Unless there are some cool heads out there who manage to survive and control the situations in their countries, the result will be massive disruptions throughout that area of the world and wide-spread terrorist attacks, albeit likely not as well-executed as those of 9-11. OBL & his dwindling cadre of nutcase vermin will have their jihad.

mudge

I dunno'. The Israeli's tend to kick * and never mind the names when it comes to reprisals. Their basic rule is as follows:"They bring a knife, we bring a gun. They send one of ours to the hospital, we send five of theirs to the morgue". My kind of "kick *". And they don't give a rat's * what the rest of the world thinks about it.Mudge the merciless

---

I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!

salzo

Mudge- Uhhhhh, the UNTOUCHABLES -right?

---

Happiness is a warm gun

beachmaster73

I'm with Iconoclast on this one Mudge. They start the killing and certain interest groups in the United States demand our participation. Also what better place now that Afghanistan and bin Laden are nearly yesterday's news to start the new terrorist war but to take up Israel's fight in Palestine. Some of you guys may crucify me for this one but I don't really see Israel as our friend. Sure they give us some good intel through the Moussad...but we pay for it in spades. If we stepped back from the Middle East and let the natural order of things work themselves out maybe Israel would win...maybe not.....but most of the Muslim world would not be targeting us as lackies of the Israeli's as it does today. I guess I have never forgiven Israel for the premeditated murder of the United States sailors on board the USS Liberty. Israel attempted to butcher, murder and wipe the existance of the USS Liberty from the face of the earth because the Liberty had the confirmation that the Israeli's themselves had started the 73 war. If there were no survivors there would be no one to counter Israel's lie. Still really p*sses me off to think that Israel used F-4 Phantoms made in the US and sold to them at rock bottom prices by us to kill Americans. With friends like that you really don't need a whole lot of enemies. Beach

Judge Dread

Someone at the top wants to replace the OLD GOAT with one doing its biding a young RAM. To heat up this war and make a lot of money.read: For thoose that like to know and discern (THINK) Is part of the puzzle ....

---

Ignis Natura Renovatur Integram

HAIRY

Holy Mackeral! I never thought the Palestinians would be given the courtesy of perhaps having an honest complaint!! By the way, please notice that our F-16s (sold to the Israelis under the military sales program) have a caveat "not to be used internally". When I wrote the DOD asking why we were not enforcing the arms sales policy, I was politely told to kiss off.

Iconoclast

HAIRY, anyone who has read an objective account of the events of surrrounding the establishment of the state of Israel should realize that the Arabic / Islamic peoples of that area have some very legitimate claims. OTOH, the loonies among them have made it very clear that they will accept nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. There are many people of good will on both sides. Unfortunately, like their counterparts in Northern Ireland and other areas, their efforts to craft a peaceful solution founder when confronted by virulent ancient hatreds nurtured by those who are unwilling to compromise. That said, my personal take on recent events is that Arafat, for whatever reason, has wasted the best chance for internal peace his people have had in 56 years. If he can't stop the terrorists completely, he certainly has the intelligence and militaary resources to curtail their activities substantially. He has not, and as a result the Palestinian claims lose most of their legitimacy. Meanwhile, the constant terrorism gives the hard liners in Israel all the justification they need to launch reprisals, and as mudge noted, they aren't squeamish about doing so. Eventually, things become so polarized there is likely no peaceful solution. I fear this will happen and the point of my original post is that if so, it will probably ignite a firestorm of Islamic fanaticism across the whole region and, indeed, throughout the world. By and large these populations are impoverished, illiterate and easily manipulated by those with an agenda - whether it is power or religion. I'm sure our civilian and military leaders have a clear idea of the potentials . . . they aren't making sound bites when they say this will be a long and painful struggle. Perhaps (and I hope so) I'm wrong, but I see many parallels between the events immediately preceding both World Wars and what we have seen unfold over the last few months. [This message has been edited by Iconoclast (edited 12-13-2001).]

ladr

I've been saying for awhile, we pull back, let them fight and talk to the winner.Help neither side.

drach

ladrI am afraid of what happened in WWII the brits and french both pulled back and sat behind their respective walls until it was to late. Don't know if our best bet isn't to pick a side now and not stop till it is all calm there, if it ever could be. Question is whose side?

---

Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands") ~~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

weemsf

While I know that Israel is certainly not a perfect nation, I will back them over the PLO or the blood-thirsty brand of Islam that seems to be the ticket of the day. I have been to Auschwitz and saw with my own eyes the horror that the Jews and others were put through. The Jews tried to work out a peace with the PLO, but they were not interested.These (the PLO, Hamas, Jihad) are the same guys who are trying to kill us. Not because we back Israel, but because we have troops on "holy land," i.e., Saudi Arabia. Speaking of friends we do not need, Saudi Arabia has been deeply involved it seems with the Bin Laden movement and finances.Psalm 122:6 ? Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

---

Baptist pastor and patriotic AmericanLover of God and Country

dakotashooter2

Frankly I am a religious person but I think we should give both sides a week to move out then nuke the Holy Land. Problem gone. nothing left to fight over.At least till the radiation disapears. I'm growing weary of this feud.

mlincoln

HAIRY, I think the rule is that the planes have to be used in defensive operations only. The USA, when Israel previously used them to bomb sites after another round of sniping and suicide bombers, shrugged and said that Israel was acting in a defensive manner.Judge Dredd, well, I was going to, oh, never mind. Please, though, get that prescription refilled.

TXLoader

Iconoclast,I've got some intelligent knowledge of the mess called the Middle East. Yes, the Arabs/Muslims have got claims, but so do the Jews. Truthfully speaking, it could be very historically correct to say that, in 1948, the Jews are given back their land that was last taken away from them by the Arabs when Islam began its big conquest of the region in the 600's AD. If the "claim to the land " argument is valid, then the logical end to that would be that the United States should cease to exist, or be greatly reduced in size and border, for the simple reason that this nation was built on land taken away from the Native Americans. Same is true with every nation in the Western Hemisphere.The biggest problem there is not the Jews. It is the belief held by a good many Arab clerics, mullahs, and sheiks that ONLY non-infidels are to live in Islamic holy land.While the Jews also lay claim to the area as holy land, their distinction is that foreigners of any kind can live among them. This is not true of the Islam as practiced by most of the Arabs in the Middle East.Coupled to this is this problem: Many Arab cultures teach their children to hold the West, and Israel, with disgust, if not outright hatred. Put no value in them as human beings. The same is not true of the Jews - they treat there neighbors as people, but it gets real hard to treat them civilly when all you get in return is hateful rhetoric and terrorist attacks.There are some who hold up with disdain the fact that Israel keeps many Palestinians in "concentration-camp" style refugee camps. The ugly truth of the matter is that that's precisely what you do with peoples who behave with such antisocial behavior as the Palestinians have (as a people) in the country they choose to live in.Yes, I said choose to live in. When the United NATIONS set up this arrangement back in '48, they parcelled out an extremely small piece of land as a country for the Jews. Jordan was formed for the Arabs who didn't want to live among Jews. Thus, the Palestinians living in Israel do so by their wish, their own choice - and thus must abide by Israeli law. Wholesale murder is not an accepted means of airing grievances in any society.A United NATIONS action created Israel and Jordan. The Arab's response? Immediate jihad. Why? BECAUSE NO "INFIDEL" RACE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LIVE ON MUSLIM HOLY LAND. Israel, defending itself, has beat the numerically superior Arabs 4 times since. Each time, they have been attacked. Each time, Israel took measures any other country was allowed to take to insure its security. Yet, Israel gets beat up time and again for it for simply existing as accorded to them by a United NATIONS charter.The Palestinians have a plight, yes. One that could have been solved years ago through diplomacy, had as their first response to a United NATIONS action wasn't to attempt the annihilation of Israel for the sole reason that Arabs thought Jews had no right to live where the UN said they could have a country. On Islamic holy land.I emphasize the NATIONS aspect of the UN because too many people seem to think that Israel's existence is a United STATES thing.TXLoader

badboybob

Well said TXLoader.

gruntled

One small correction, the Isralais were the agressors in every war except the Yom Kipper War. (Note in 1948 they declared Independance & they now say if Arafat does the same they will attack & destroy Palistine so even they say a unilateral declaration of independence is an act of agression.) The reason for the trecherousattack on the Liberty was to prevent us fromlearning they started that war. They eventried to blame the Egyptians until theydiscovered to their horror they had failed to murder all of our people. With "friends"like this who needs enemies?

cbxjeff

Iconoclast: Look what you have started!Gruntled: Dude, get on track. Read TXLoader again, maybe more than once. The UN created that domain for the Jews. The Jews didn't just say "This is my turf". You probably think that the Jew are the aggressors today. How many terrorist bombs will it take for you to say that maybe some action needs to be taken. As for the Jews moving into Muslim turf - are you aware that prophet muhammad was born in 571 AD? Do you know how many hundreds of years the Jews wandered that God forsaken land before then? Your personal feelings are getting in the way of reality.

---

cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.

Lowrider

Another fine mess the UN has gotten us into.

---

Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.

gruntled

1. What gave the U.N. the right to create such a state?2. The U.N. also created a state of Palistine but the Israelis took it all.3. They evicted those who lived there for centuries & then created a "Law of Return" for people who had never been there.4. There were people living there BEFORE Moses decided it would be a nice place to live.5. Moslems & Jews lived peacefully together Throughout the Moslem world UNTIL the formation of Zionist terrorist organizations designed to create a Jewish only state. (Look up the history of the Irgin, the Haganah, Stern Gang & now the JDL. These organizations were terrorizing Arabs & the British when Arafat was only a gleam in his father's eye.6. The present leadership of Isreal will NEVER agree to peace as long as they believe they can gain just one sq. meter more of land no matter how many more have to die.7. The latest round of troubles began when the present Prime Minister deliberately started a provocation at the Dome of the Rock in order to stop the peace process that he so desperately hated.With "friends" like this who needs any enemies?[This message has been edited by gruntled (edited 12-14-2001).]

gruntled

1. What gave the U.N. the right to create scuh a state?2. The U.N. also created a state of Palitine but the Israelis took it all.3. They evicted those who lived there for centuries & then created a "Law of Return" for people who had never been there.4. There were people living there BEFORE Moses decided it would be a nice place to live.5. Moslems & Jews lived peacefully together Throughout the Moslem world UNTIL the formation of Zionist terrorist organizations designed to create a Jewish only state. (Look up the history of the Irgin, the Haganah, Stern Gang & now the JDL. These organizations were terrorizing Arabs & the British when Arafat was only a gleam in his father's eye.6. The present leadership of Isreal will NEVER agree to peace as long as they believe they can gain just one sq. meter more of land no matter how many more have to die.7. The latest round of troubles began when the present Prime Minister deliberately started a provocation at the Dome of the Rock in order to stop the peace process that he so desperately hated.With "friends" like this who needs any enemies?

turbo

Isreal is counted among the nations of the world, soveirgn and free.Palestinians have refused nation status several times, and have openly admitted they will not rest until Isreal is destroyed.The PLO & Hamas the main terrorist organizations who has been sponsoring terrorism throughout the middle east all these years, against innocent civilians, need to be treated like Al Queda, and any other group not wanting to have peace and desiring to get it's way by these means.Isreal is doing what any nation under these conditions would do, defend itself, they have more of a right to do so, using whatever means at their disposal.Our own nation can ever be safe unless other nations understand the meaning of the word freedom. They can and never will know the definition of this word, unless they are rid of all those that would oppress the people.

competentone

Not quite on the subject here, but related:Have any of you considered what would happen if Osama bin Laden has acquired a "real serious" nuclear bomb (not just some type of "radiologic device") and if he detonated it in Israel?Israel would almost be forced to make "counter preemptive" nuclear stikes against its neighbors--just to prevent itself from being victimized further after such an attack.Cheery Saturday morning thoughts...

ndbilly

This enmity pre-dates Islam. Depending on which historical source you choose, the stories in Genesis date from between 4000 and 2000 years B.C.E. Start with God giving Abram the land of Canaan, even though the Canaanites were living there, and follow through the wars with Sodom, Gomorrah, with the Amalekites and the Amorites, with Elam and Shinar, with the Philistines, and on and on up to the Diaspora. The Jews and the other peoples of that region of the world have been at each other's throats since we began to record history. It is doubtful, IMHO, that Jimmy Carter or Ms. Albright or the United Nations or anyone but the Almighty Himself can ever bring peace to that region. Both sides are convinced that God is speaking to them and that their's is the one true way. The struggle has been and will continue to be about that. Other than the unlikely prospect of both sides utterly and simultaneously annihilating the other, I believe that the world will continue to live with this situation for as long as there is an Israel and as long as there is group of people seeking to establish a Palastinian state.

cbxjeff

competentone, Along that same line - I always thought that if any of those scudd missiles would have hit a large metro area, we would have never fired a shot in the gulf war.

---

cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.

Iconoclast

Y, cbx, looks like dano may have a junior-assistant-in-training, huh? Actually, I think I need to go back, sharpen my pencil & be sure I don't have too much blood in my caffeine system, 'cause the point I sought to make was much broader than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. TXL - I apologize for giving the impression I'm an Arab apologist. I ain't. Far from it. The point you make about the Islamic intolerance of any other faiths on / in "their" Holy Lands is in part what I wished to convey. Lacking detailed knowledge of Islam, I will accept your characterization of it as including an institutional intolerance of non-practitioners while recognizing that in other cultures / times similar absolutes have prevailed (e.g., the Inquisition, to name only one). Certainly the substance and tone of much of the commentary of Islamic origin in the past 50+ years has been couched in such terms. At it's heart, the justification for these calls for jihad is the very existence of Israel. Mess . . . I guess that's a fair, if mild, description. The question of which group(s) has / have a 'right' to that land depends entirely on which point in history an individual uses for a benchmark. But that's a big part of the problem, isn't it? Both of the present primary protagonists are looking back at historical hatreds for justification of their actions rather than forward to a future that would accommodate all. Israel has a right to institutional paranoia about the Arabs; the Arabs launched an all-out attempt to eradicate them as soon as the British left and they have known nothing better than an armed truce since. Nevertheless, as gruntled pointed out, it's not as though the Israelis can cloak themselves in innocence. Israel was midwifed by terrorists. They have callously, even brutally at times, seized property legally belonging to Arabs living within their borders to accommodate the needs of their burgeoning population (something like a million from Eastern Europe alone since Perestroika). In symbolism (Sharon's visit to the Temple of the Mount) and substance (denial of civil liberties), to say nothing of their military actions, they have acted to aggravate any innate hostility they face. And while many of their actions were responses to attacks, the Arabs do have legitimate grievances.But in this last set of negotiations, Israel did offer the Palestinians sovereignty in exchange for peace. So, overall, IMO, they are somewhat less at fault. You are correct about the UN mandate, but lets not forget the UN was largely a creature of the Western Allies in those days. While not the ideal situation, at least it accomplished some good in its infancy. In recent years, the Arab states and others, for many reasons, not least their hostility to the US, have passed many resolutions condemning Israel. If the UN as an institution has criticized the PLO or the Arabs in relation to Israel, I must have missed it. So, to the Islamic states, it is the United States not the United Nations which is the party responsible for this continued affront to their sensibilities. The UN today it is a refuge for third world corruption, a pulpit for anti-American demagoguery / hegemony and has no redeeming virtues beyond the World Health Organization which I can discern. We'd be well rid of it, but that's another topic. My point was simply that this latest development, given the impending matyrdom (to some parties) of OBL & his followers, is likely to serve as the flashpoint igniting a regional, if not global, conflict. It was not meant to be a value judgement of either side, for both have grievances, both are at fault, and the innocents on both sides suffer for the acts of others.