CASELESS AMMO

Gene B.

IF YOU WANTED TO MAKE CASELESS AMMO COULDNT YOU JUST MAKE THE CASE PART OF THE BULLET, AND INSTEAD OF THE GUNPOWDER IN THE CASE PROPELING THE BULLET COULDNT THE GUNPOWDER PROPEL THE CASE AND THE BULLET? KIND OF LIKE A ROCKET. AND INSTEAD OF A FIRING PIN THERE WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE A ELECTRIC LIGHTER WHICH WOULD MAKE A ELECTRIC CHARGE WHICH WOULD GO DOWN THE IGNITER AND IGNITE THE GUNPOWDER OR PROPELENT. THE BULLET WOULD HAVE SMALL HOLES IN THE "CASE" SO WHEN THE "PROPELNET" REACHES THEM IT WILL PUT A BACKSPIN ON THE BULLET MAKING IT FLY FURTHER AND STRAITER, WHERE A NORMAL BULLET WOULD BE FALLING DOWN INSTEAD OF KEEPING A STRAIGHT TROJECTORY, IF THATS HOW YOU SPELL IT. "PATENT PENDING" DO YOU THINK THIS WILL WORK??[This message has been edited by Gene B. (edited 10-25-2001).][This message has been edited by Gene B. (edited 10-25-2001).]

Alerion

It didn't work in the mid 60's when Gyrojet came out with their "Rocket Gun." Since the round came out of the gun at relatively low velocity (and accelerated in flight) it had terrible accuracy and very little energy at the muzzle. Not to mention that if the bullet became unstable in flight you had no idea where it was going to go.James Bond was the only person who could get one to work right. But that was just in the movies!Tom

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Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

gruntled

Powder inside the bullet & no case was used by Volcanic pistols back in the 1850s.

ericthered

Part of the problem is the way in which ammunition works. The reason for the pressure build up is the case which expands and seals against the barrel and bolt. The powder which burns slowly out in the open, explodes because it ignites in a closed space which causes a geometric progression of ignition. Caseless bullets like you propose would require quite a unique weapon design that would allow new bullets to be introduced easily and dependably and also "lock" bullets into a sealed condition in the chamber, without pressure loss upon ignition. The mechanism would require zero tolerances to do that, which would be a real pain when powder residue began to infiltrate the sealing components.ThanksEric

Redleg

Do a web search for the Heckler & Koch G-11 which fires caseless ammunition. The mechanism for this weapon was so fast that it could fire a three round burst with recoil being felt only after the third round. It fired caseless ammunition.It was supposed to go into general distribution in the German army, but the wall came down and there was no longer a need for a new weapon. It is a very neat weapon.

competentone

Redleg,Wasn't the G-11 developed in the 1980's? Was that the one with the "powder" fused into the shape of a rectangle with the bullet embedded and protruding from the top? The rounds were stored in a clear plastic mag along the top of the weapon; and didn't the "bolt" actually rotate the rounds, after being fed from the top, into position to be chambered?Foggy memories...but I remember being fascinated by such a design... think it was the H&K you've mentioned.

Iconoclast

The US govt experimented w/ a variety of caseless designs in the 60s & 70s. They were much as you described, with the powder molded into a solid pellet around the bullet on one end and an electric primer on the other. If I knew how to put a picture in this post, I could show you one variety in 5.56 - there were several. Also in 7.62, including both AP & tracer loadings. Biggest problem was stability. A lot of things affected them negatively. Moisture, chemicals, heat, etc. to which a cased round was virtually immune. Another major stumbling block was that on full auto fire, the rounds would start cooking off in the hot chamber before the action was fully closed. I don't know how far H&K took this in development. I have one of their rounds, also, and it is much different in appearance than the US prototypes, particularly the powder which looks something like white plastic while the US ones look more like a molded green/black jello in which the individual powder grains (look like some grade of IMR) are quite pronounced. And yes, this concept goes back over 150 years; the Hunt-Jennings pre-dates the Volcanic.